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Thread: Kenpo Jujutsu/Kenpo Taijutsu?

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    Default Kenpo Jujutsu/Kenpo Taijutsu?

    What is this? I have only studied Ed Parker's Kenpo but lately I have been hearing about this and that it is a very old system that came from Japan and was the source of techniques for HI Kempo and EPAK.

    Could someone show some light on this?

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    Default Re: Kenpo Jujutsu/Kenpo Taijutsu?

    As I understand it:

    Kenpo is the punching and kicking. (Think Five Swords)

    JuJitsu is the contact manipulation. (Think Crossing Talon)

    One of the early descriptors Mr. Parker used for his system was Kenpo JuJitsu. Later, he changed the description so it didn't sound so foreign.

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    Default Re: Kenpo Jujutsu/Kenpo Taijutsu?

    The style of kenpo jujitsu came from James Mitose. Later it was claimed that it was an old Japanese family style that he was the inheritor for (this story is VERY political and controversial). The important part is that he taught this style on Hawaii, later he started calling his family art Kosho Ryu. Mitose's most famous student was William Chow.

    Chow taught many people who went on to found their own styles. Chow called his style many different things along the way as he evolved from what Mitose taught him. Chow added elements of kung fu that he supposedly learned from his father (again, no one knows where he learned it from sure, but there is some kung fu influence in his style). One of the many famous people who Chow taught was Ed Parker who came to the mainland and further evolved what he had learned and created American Kenpo.

    There is also Kenpo Tai that was the creation of David German and added back in and expanded on many of the jujistu techniques. I am not familiar with Kenpo Taijutsu though.
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    Default Re: Kenpo Jujutsu/Kenpo Taijutsu?

    Quote Originally Posted by punisher73 View Post
    The style of kenpo jujitsu came from James Mitose. Later it was claimed that it was an old Japanese family style that he was the inheritor for (this story is VERY political and controversial). The important part is that he taught this style on Hawaii, later he started calling his family art Kosho Ryu. Mitose's most famous student was William Chow.

    Chow taught many people who went on to found their own styles. Chow called his style many different things along the way as he evolved from what Mitose taught him. Chow added elements of kung fu that he supposedly learned from his father (again, no one knows where he learned it from sure, but there is some kung fu influence in his style). One of the many famous people who Chow taught was Ed Parker who came to the mainland and further evolved what he had learned and created American Kenpo.

    There is also Kenpo Tai that was the creation of David German and added back in and expanded on many of the jujistu techniques. I am not familiar with Kenpo Taijutsu though.
    Correct sir. Ed Parker nor William Chow used the term "Kenpo Jiujitsu" relative to what they were teaching. The term is actually a derivative of language translations and colloquial terms.

    Simply, outside of China the pronunciation of the kanji was different and "Chuanfa" became "kempo" in Japan. The remnants of all the Japanese fighting arts were called "jiujitsu," not to be confused with their "do" or "way" arts. If you were doing "Chuanfa" in Japan, it was know colloquially as "Kempo-Jiujitsu," or "Chinese version of Japanese fighting." So technically there was no real art of kenpo jiujitsu. When Mitose used the term, it was a very general expression used in Japan to reflect Chinese teaching, which I suspect is why Mitose changed it later to a purely Japanese Lineage art to support his position, because he never claimed any exposure or study in the Chinese Arts.

    So the use of the term is either heavily Japanese influenced Chinese teaching, or the creation of modern martial artists who claim heavy ties or historical artistic roots to japan, and it is as generic as the "karate."
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    Default Re: Kenpo Jujutsu/Kenpo Taijutsu?

    I agree with Doc's statement that Kempo is and was a very general term which oftentimes was interchangable with karate or toude. Many Okinawan masters, including the first generation to bring the Okinawan arts to Japan, used the term "Kempo" or "Kempo Karate." Funakoshi, Motobu, and Mabuni all referred to what they studied as Kempo at one time or another. Funakoshi used the term Ryukyu Kempo Karate for his original art then Japanese Karate for what he taught in Japan. His students used the term Shotokan in his honor. Motobu used Ryukyu Kempo Karate as well.

    What's important to keep in mind is that they didn't place as much importance on what they name they used for their art. A master might refer to what he did as Karate, Toude, Kempo, Kempo Karate, etc. The words were just words, and in Okinawa the arts weren't as rigid and formalized as they later became in the later part of the twentieth century. In fact most Okinawan masters would go to China to study, study Okinawan wrestling or learn from whomever they could, and call their art kempo, karate, etc.

    This continues on today in many Okinawan arts. The masters Oyata and Ota were once members of the same karate club. Oyata originally refered to his art as Ryukyu Kempo then later changed it to Ryu Te. Ota used the term Okinawan Kenpo. In the final analysis though, the names are just words, and are of little importance in comparison to the body of the arts.

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    Default Re: Kenpo Jujutsu/Kenpo Taijutsu?

    I'm sorry I can't comment more on the Hawaiian and American versions, but being an Okinawan Kempo stylist I am most versed in that area of Kempo history.

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    Default Re: Kenpo Jujutsu/Kenpo Taijutsu?

    Quote Originally Posted by WhiteCrane View Post
    I'm sorry I can't comment more on the Hawaiian and American versions, but being an Okinawan Kempo stylist I am most versed in that area of Kempo history.
    Don't worry about that . . . I think that most of the people that were there have trouble sorting through the lineage and names . . .
    Marcus Doyle
    Shaolin Kempo
    American Kenpo

    KempoTraining.com

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    Default Re: Kenpo Jujutsu/Kenpo Taijutsu?

    The above descriptions on Kenpo Jiujitsu are correct. To shed some light on Kenpo Taijitsu - this is usually a term used to describe the empty hand art of the ninja (often just referred to as taijitsu as well). Many ninja groups also refer to their empty hand arts as kempo as well (such as Sato-ryu kempo witch was supposed to be the bare handed art of the Koga Ryu Ninja).

    Hope this helps,
    PorterKenpo

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    Default Re: Kenpo Jujutsu/Kenpo Taijutsu?

    Quote Originally Posted by PorterKenpo View Post
    The above descriptions on Kenpo Jiujitsu are correct. To shed some light on Kenpo Taijitsu - this is usually a term used to describe the empty hand art of the ninja (often just referred to as taijitsu as well). Many ninja groups also refer to their empty hand arts as kempo as well (such as Sato-ryu kempo witch was supposed to be the bare handed art of the Koga Ryu Ninja).

    Hope this helps,
    PorterKenpo
    Eh, almost. Cultural language -isms change with where the movement of a culture ... well...moves to. When some buncha judo payers in the US decide to change their focus from sport to combat, they typically adopt the name of their non-sportive/combat-based mother art: jujutsu. Name it something like "American Combat Kempo-Jujutsu Academy", even though all they've done is blend judo and shotokan or some other fist art. Some Aikidoka decide to add in a ton of atemi and reorient to combative training, rather than philosophical? Change to aikijutsu or aikijujutsu. "Bob Smith's Aikijujutsu School of Self-Defense", or some such.

    Across the pond in European climes, "jujutsu" is used less, with "Tai-jutsu" taking its place as the colloquial way of saying, "We ain't a traditional thing".

    Kempo-Jujutsu and Kempo-Taijutsu are different ways of saying the same things, from different parts of the globe. Take some buncha karate kata and bunkai, add in a healthy serving of judo training, perhaps some complementary arts for an eclectic blend, and in the US that blend will be hailed as "kempo-jujutsu". Across the pond, it will more likely be known as "kempo-taijutsu", independently and completely apart from any associations with the black pajama people.

    Lotsa guys split the judo federations, hook up with a karate stylist, and put together their own eclectic, self-defense based art. "Taijutsu" is one of the monikers that lets you know -- as you mosey down a street in Bruxelles, France, Nederlands, Luxembourg, etc., -- that this is what you're looking at from a historical/developmental perspective.

    Sato-sama pretty much just referred to his gig as "Chinese Kempo", and taught it as a complement to the jujutsu ryu he covered in his boards. The bunkai and waza are very simple by EPAKKS standards; grab, twist, hit, take-down, kick/stomp. Pretty formulaic, but get fun when the manipulations start being explored more. The Koga-ryu thing should be appreciated at arms length with a grain of salt, IMO, for whatever it's worth. In his own lifetime, Sato-sama admitted to basically creating it by maintaining information exchange relationships with Chinese martial arts dignitaries as advisors...meaning what he taught wasn't available to any Koga, assuming there really were any in the 20th century. I've posted on here before some compare/contrast stuff between the takamatsu, Dosshin Sho, and Sato. Very different approaches, clearly indicating different background experiences with the Chinese.

    Azato --> Taku, vs. Azato --> Sato demonstrate obvious splits in percieved significance of data types, and well as likely information injections from 'source material' providers.
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    Default Re: Kenpo Jujutsu/Kenpo Taijutsu?

    Quote Originally Posted by Dr. Dave in da house View Post
    Eh, almost. Cultural language -isms change with where the movement of a culture ... well...moves to. When some buncha judo payers in the US decide to change their focus from sport to combat, they typically adopt the name of their non-sportive/combat-based mother art: jujutsu. Name it something like "American Combat Kempo-Jujutsu Academy", even though all they've done is blend judo and shotokan or some other fist art. Some Aikidoka decide to add in a ton of atemi and reorient to combative training, rather than philosophical? Change to aikijutsu or aikijujutsu. "Bob Smith's Aikijujutsu School of Self-Defense", or some such.

    Across the pond in European climes, "jujutsu" is used less, with "Tai-jutsu" taking its place as the colloquial way of saying, "We ain't a traditional thing".

    Kempo-Jujutsu and Kempo-Taijutsu are different ways of saying the same things, from different parts of the globe. Take some buncha karate kata and bunkai, add in a healthy serving of judo training, perhaps some complementary arts for an eclectic blend, and in the US that blend will be hailed as "kempo-jujutsu". Across the pond, it will more likely be known as "kempo-taijutsu", independently and completely apart from any associations with the black pajama people.

    Lotsa guys split the judo federations, hook up with a karate stylist, and put together their own eclectic, self-defense based art. "Taijutsu" is one of the monikers that lets you know -- as you mosey down a street in Bruxelles, France, Nederlands, Luxembourg, etc., -- that this is what you're looking at from a historical/developmental perspective.

    Sato-sama pretty much just referred to his gig as "Chinese Kempo", and taught it as a complement to the jujutsu ryu he covered in his boards. The bunkai and waza are very simple by EPAKKS standards; grab, twist, hit, take-down, kick/stomp. Pretty formulaic, but get fun when the manipulations start being explored more. The Koga-ryu thing should be appreciated at arms length with a grain of salt, IMO, for whatever it's worth. In his own lifetime, Sato-sama admitted to basically creating it by maintaining information exchange relationships with Chinese martial arts dignitaries as advisors...meaning what he taught wasn't available to any Koga, assuming there really were any in the 20th century. I've posted on here before some compare/contrast stuff between the takamatsu, Dosshin Sho, and Sato. Very different approaches, clearly indicating different background experiences with the Chinese.

    Azato --> Taku, vs. Azato --> Sato demonstrate obvious splits in percieved significance of data types, and well as likely information injections from 'source material' providers.
    -----------

    Dr. Dave,
    I have not gotten to work with many martial artist from across the pond, so I'll take your word for it. My previous statement was from my experience working out with different ninjitsu practitioners here in the US; that referred to their empty hand arts as kenpo, taijitsu, or kenpo taijitsu. They were not of Sato-ryu (I believe one was from Hatsumi's lineage, one from Hayes, and one from American ninjitsu...). My point was that, although there may be some modern eclectic blending of the two systems; ninjitsu has generically referred their empty hand arts as kenpo, taijitsu, or both (kenpo taijitsu) for quite some time. I have enclosed several links to illustrate the point:
    http://www.alljujitsu.com/kenpo-kempo.html

    http://japaneseculturecenter.com/tag/bujinkan/

    http://www.alljujitsu.com/imgs/budos...su-classes.gif

    PorterKenpo

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    Default Re: Kenpo Jujutsu/Kenpo Taijutsu?

    Quote Originally Posted by PorterKenpo View Post
    -----------

    Dr. Dave,
    I have not gotten to work with many martial artist from across the pond, so I'll take your word for it. My previous statement was from my experience working out with different ninjitsu practitioners here in the US; that referred to their empty hand arts as kenpo, taijitsu, or kenpo taijitsu. They were not of Sato-ryu (I believe one was from Hatsumi's lineage, one from Hayes, and one from American ninjitsu...). My point was that, although there may be some modern eclectic blending of the two systems; ninjitsu has generically referred their empty hand arts as kenpo, taijitsu, or both (kenpo taijitsu) for quite some time. I have enclosed several links to illustrate the point:
    http://www.alljujitsu.com/kenpo-kempo.html

    http://japaneseculturecenter.com/tag/bujinkan/

    http://www.alljujitsu.com/imgs/budos...su-classes.gif

    PorterKenpo
    Yep. I know they have. Comes from a stint Takamatsu-sensei spent with Sato, and with Sato referring to to his art as kempo. Kempo implies a Chinese influence to mixed arts (jujutsu base with striking infusion). The pre-Hayes dakentaijutsu atemiwaza combinations had a visible influence from Sato-sama's approach.

    Some of takamatsu's students, in order to shore up their claims to inheriting ryu, sought out Sato after some organizational splits...akin to kenpo seniors seeking out old dawgs who hung with Mr. Parker in the early days. Several now claim to have inherited Sokeships from Sato, even though they move more like Taku folk. A few have actually embodied the approach of Sato.
    Clear mind, clear movement. Mastery of the Arts is mastery over the Self. That in this moment, this motion, the thoughts, memories, impulses and passions that cloud the mind must yield to the clarity of purpose, and purity of motion.

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    Default Re: Kenpo Jujutsu/Kenpo Taijutsu?

    Quote Originally Posted by Dr. Dave in da house View Post
    Kempo implies a Chinese influence to mixed arts (jujutsu base with striking infusion). .
    This pretty accurately describes the Kempo I learned from Mr. Stover, back in NC.
    "To be, rather than to seem"

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