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Thread: May 2007 IKCA Technique of the Month- Escaping Ram

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    Default May 2007 IKCA Technique of the Month- Escaping Ram

    From the Orange Belt syllabus:

    Continueing with the "head-butt" debate, but from a different angle....

    Defense: Bear Hug from 6:00

    1) Whip your head back into the attackers nose thrusting your hips out towards 12:00 to gain maximum momentum and set up for step #2

    2) Thrust your hips back into the attacker "bumping" them off of you as you extend double downward outward blocks to clear the attackers arms away from you (*check over your shoulder to gauge where attacker is)

    3) Make an adjustment step based on attackers position and execute a rear thrusting heel kick to an appropriate target (I like the bladder/groin personally )
    "It is sobering to reflect that one of the best ways to get yourself a reputation as a dangerous citizen these days is to go about repeating the very phrases which our founding fathers used in the struggle for independence." Charles A. Beard

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    Default Re: May 2007 IKCA Technique of the Month- Escaping Ram

    Quote Originally Posted by Celtic_Crippler View Post
    From the Orange Belt syllabus:

    Continueing with the "head-butt" debate, but from a different angle....

    Defense: Bear Hug from 6:00

    1) Whip your head back into the attackers nose thrusting your hips out towards 12:00 to gain maximum momentum and set up for step #2

    2) Thrust your hips back into the attacker "bumping" them off of you as you extend double downward outward blocks to clear the attackers arms away from you (*check over your shoulder to gauge where attacker is)

    3) Make an adjustment step based on attackers position and execute a rear thrusting heel kick to an appropriate target (I like the bladder/groin personally )
    Is this an attempt or a completed hug?

    If this is an attempt, how do you teach the students to prepare for this kind of attack in order to defend before the hold is completed?

    If this is a completed hug, is this an arms pinned bear hug?

    How far should the hips be thrust towards 12 and 6 in the first two steps of the technique?

    Can you describe specifically how the extended double outward block clears the attackers arms? If this is a completed hug, are we assuming the head butt caused him to release his grip?

    Do you address what to do about establishing a base to avoid being picked up, or controlling the arms to avoid the attacker transitioning into another hold or a choke?

    Does it matter, for the purposes of teaching this technique, which leg the defender uses to kick the groin?

    Do you teach coverouts at this stage of material with your students?


    -Rob
    "All the time you're arguing over, is this kenpo, is that kenpo, you could be training!"

    -Senior Instructor Bobby Thomas

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    Default Re: May 2007 IKCA Technique of the Month- Escaping Ram

    Quote Originally Posted by Thesemindz View Post
    Is this an attempt or a completed hug?

    If this is an attempt, how do you teach the students to prepare for this kind of attack in order to defend before the hold is completed?

    If this is a completed hug, is this an arms pinned bear hug?
    Let's go with completed since most of us don't have eyes in the back of our heads and this type attack would more than likely take one off gaurd. The arms are pinned.

    Quote Originally Posted by Thesemindz
    How far should the hips be thrust towards 12 and 6 in the first two steps of the technique?
    As far as reasonably possible. The idea is to immediately drive the back of your head into the attackers nose.

    Quote Originally Posted by Thesemindz
    Can you describe specifically how the extended double outward block clears the attackers arms? If this is a completed hug, are we assuming the head butt caused him to release his grip?
    Yes. ....or at least loosen.

    Quote Originally Posted by Thesemindz
    Do you address what to do about establishing a base to avoid being picked up, or controlling the arms to avoid the attacker transitioning into another hold or a choke?
    Yes

    Quote Originally Posted by Thesemindz
    Does it matter, for the purposes of teaching this technique, which leg the defender uses to kick the groin?
    Ideal phase=right..but it would depend on the relative position of the attack wouldn't it?

    Quote Originally Posted by Thesemindz
    Do you teach coverouts at this stage of material with your students?

    -Rob
    Coverouts are included at purple. Then the student goes back to review their previous material and works them in.
    "It is sobering to reflect that one of the best ways to get yourself a reputation as a dangerous citizen these days is to go about repeating the very phrases which our founding fathers used in the struggle for independence." Charles A. Beard

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    Default Re: May 2007 IKCA Technique of the Month- Escaping Ram

    Quote:
    Originally Posted by Thesemindz
    Do you address what to do about establishing a base to avoid being picked up, or controlling the arms to avoid the attacker transitioning into another hold or a choke?

    We've applied some things I learned from Doc Chapel when it comes to bear-hug attacks. Not so much a technique, just more of a mechanism for getting into a solid position from which to do my technique.

    We practice with pretty aggressive grab attacks, and from what we've tried, the best way to trap the attacker's hands is to clench both fists, and bring them sortof up to your chin, pinning his hands with your forearms

    Assuming that you were caught off guard to some extent, arms are pinned, there is also probably some amount of momentum to your 12. Not a tackle, just a collision as he grabs you. He's probably bigger than you, becasue smaller guys don't do this attack to bigger guys. So you are very likely to be forced to take a step forward as he locks in the hug.

    You don't have much choice (according to our assumptions) to take that step. As you realize "holy crap I've just been bear-hugged and forced to take a step", pin the arms and sink your weight down and forward while stomping with the foot that didn't move last. Now the crazy part -

    Take another step forward, not sure it matters which foot, say right. Step right, then left, then stomp the right foot as you settle into a horse stance, his arms still pinned. The pin, sinking the weight, and the forward movement should put you in a very good position - he won't have any leverage to pull you back, will be off-balanced with his arms pinned.

    Now, you can blast him in the way that you feel most appropriate
    Last edited by DavidCC; 05-02-2007 at 02:33 PM.

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    Default Re: May 2007 IKCA Technique of the Month- Escaping Ram

    Thank you for answering my questions about this technique. Since last time I felt there was some confusion, I wanted to begin this thread with as clear an idea of the material being discussed as possible.

    Quote Originally Posted by Celtic_Crippler View Post
    Let's go with completed since most of us don't have eyes in the back of our heads and this type attack would more than likely take one off gaurd. The arms are pinned.
    In this case, my first question is for both you and Mr. Parsons. In
    the discussion of Thrusting Release, Mr. Parsons said,

    Quote Originally Posted by bdparsons View Post
    The IKCA teaches each grab, lock or hold should be trained as attempted.
    Now, I'm reading from you, Celtic-Crippler, that this is a completed hold, which I would expect since it is coming from your obscure zone. I'm curious if your experience with the IKCA comports with what Mr. Parsons said in the above quote? Mr. Parsons, with relation to this discussion, do you also teach this as a completed hug, or do you teach it as an attempt?

    Quote Originally Posted by Celtic_Crippler View Post
    As far as reasonably possible. The idea is to immediately drive the back of your head into the attackers nose.
    Ok, this makes sense, although with a rear bear hug arms pinned, I don't think "as far as reasonably possible" is going to be very far. I'm glad you used that terminology though, because I think it would be easy to over exaggerate this movement, and I think "as far as reasonably possible" is a good way to teach students not to.

    This part of the technique I like. I teach similar movements in techniques like Squeezing the Peach, and think that a head butt strike with the back of the head to the attacker's face is much safer than using the forehead. This is a good example of a movement that is so likely to occur anyway as a reaction to being grabbed from behind, that it makes good sense to teach it in a technique. I feel that the closer to natural responses we can make the techniques, the easier it is for a person under stress to use them. The only concern I'd have would be that the attacker would tuck his face in tight to your back, and head butting his skull could leave you woozy, so I'd be careful not to strike too hard unless I could be sure he was facing directly towards my head.

    Quote Originally Posted by Celtic_Crippler View Post
    Yes. ....or at least loosen.
    Ok, I recognize that this is the ideal phase of the technique, so I'm not going to ask what you do if he doesn't release or loosen in the ideal phase, but I'm curious, what other ideas do you teach students in the what if phase if he doesn't loosen or release his grip? I teach several, but I'm just curious which ones you like. The reason I asked about how the outward blocks clear the attacker's arms, which you didn't address here, is because in performing this technique, I find that the attackers arms tend to rise up towards my head as I thrust the blocks out, by riding my biceps up and at an angle. Do you address this in some way, or do you just assume that the movement will occur fast enough to prevent any kind of counter offensive maneuver on the part of the attacker?

    Quote Originally Posted by Celtic_Crippler View Post
    Yes
    Would you be willing to go into greater detail about what you teach as far as basic bear hug defense is concerned? For instance, I always taught my students to immediately grab the hands of the attacker, pressing or pulling them towards the navel, while widening their base and dropping their weight. This keeps the hands from moving up towards the head, and makes them much harder to lift off the ground or similarly destabalize.

    Quote Originally Posted by Celtic_Crippler View Post
    Ideal phase=right..but it would depend on the relative position of the attack wouldn't it?
    I agree, I was just curious which leg the kick was executed with because you didn't say in your initial post.

    Quote Originally Posted by Celtic_Crippler View Post
    Coverouts are included at purple. Then the student goes back to review their previous material and works them in.
    Ok, this is more or less how I was trained. Do you have different coverouts as the student progresses? We were taught coverouts, double coverouts, and spinouts. As the student progressed, the sweeps and strikes contained in these movements were revealed and could then be worked into previous material.

    All in all, I don't think this is a bad technique. The part with the outward blocks seems a little iffy to me, but in general, this is a pretty simple bear hug defense, and has some things going for it. I like the head butt, with the caveat I listed above, because it's a very natural movement. I like the rear kick, because you're going to want to create space anyway the rear kick can be used to prevent the attacker from charging in to reapply the hold.

    I'm curious, these techniques seem very simple to me. Don't misunderstand me, simple is good! Simple is much more likely to work than complex when under chemical, emotional, and physical stress. I only point it out to ask if this is a common thread in the IKCA material, or if it is only because these are earlier techniques. I was also curious if the IKCA includes any EPAK techniques or if they are all original variants on EPAK material?

    Thanks for your reply.

    -Rob
    "All the time you're arguing over, is this kenpo, is that kenpo, you could be training!"

    -Senior Instructor Bobby Thomas

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    Default Re: May 2007 IKCA Technique of the Month- Escaping Ram

    While working this tech I've noticed the momentum push towards 12 at times. I found that once "planted" I had good leverage to explode backwards with the head butt.

    I also found that sometimes the attackers face may be positioned out of the necessary path for the headbutt to make proper contact, but the motion is still effective in breaking free. By throwing your head back and then thrusting back with the hips as your head comes forward it produces a "wriggling factor" (for lack of a better word) making it more difficult to hold onto you.
    "It is sobering to reflect that one of the best ways to get yourself a reputation as a dangerous citizen these days is to go about repeating the very phrases which our founding fathers used in the struggle for independence." Charles A. Beard

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    Default Re: May 2007 IKCA Technique of the Month- Escaping Ram

    Quote Originally Posted by Celtic_Crippler View Post
    While working this tech I've noticed the momentum push towards 12 at times. I found that once "planted" I had good leverage to explode backwards with the head butt.

    I also found that sometimes the attackers face may be positioned out of the necessary path for the headbutt to make proper contact, but the motion is still effective in breaking free. By throwing your head back and then thrusting back with the hips as your head comes forward it produces a "wriggling factor" (for lack of a better word) making it more difficult to hold onto you.
    I imagine the answer will be yes, but do you practice bear hug attacks with varying levels of intensity? For instance, white belts tend to have what I call "teddy bear" hugs, while you will more likely see "grizzly bear" hugs in a black belt class. I've always thought it was important to practice all my bear hug techniques against a variety of approaches, including possible follow up attacks like throws, takedowns, dragdowns, etcetera. If I can make it work against a grizzly bear hug where the attacker immediately tries to pick me up and throw me to the ground, then that's a good technique.


    -Rob
    "All the time you're arguing over, is this kenpo, is that kenpo, you could be training!"

    -Senior Instructor Bobby Thomas

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    Default Re: May 2007 IKCA Technique of the Month- Escaping Ram

    Quote Originally Posted by Thesemindz View Post
    Ok, I recognize that this is the ideal phase of the technique, so I'm not going to ask what you do if he doesn't release or loosen in the ideal phase, but I'm curious, what other ideas do you teach students in the what if phase if he doesn't loosen or release his grip? I teach several, but I'm just curious which ones you like. The reason I asked about how the outward blocks clear the attacker's arms, which you didn't address here, is because in performing this technique, I find that the attackers arms tend to rise up towards my head as I thrust the blocks out, by riding my biceps up and at an angle. Do you address this in some way, or do you just assume that the movement will occur fast enough to prevent any kind of counter offensive maneuver on the part of the attacker?
    The same thing you do. We teach students to "graft" and/or use "the equation formula." I suppose "Squeezing the Peach" could work as an insert, but that was never one of my personal favorites during my time in American Kenpo.


    Quote Originally Posted by TheseMindz
    Ok, this is more or less how I was trained. Do you have different coverouts as the student progresses? We were taught coverouts, double coverouts, and spinouts. As the student progressed, the sweeps and strikes contained in these movements were revealed and could then be worked into previous material.
    Yes. We do teach Kenpo.

    Quote Originally Posted by Thesemindz
    All in all, I don't think this is a bad technique. The part with the outward blocks seems a little iffy to me, but in general, this is a pretty simple bear hug defense, and has some things going for it. I like the head butt, with the caveat I listed above, because it's a very natural movement. I like the rear kick, because you're going to want to create space anyway the rear kick can be used to prevent the attacker from charging in to reapply the hold.
    I'm glad you gleaned something positive from it.

    Quote Originally Posted by Thesemindz
    I'm curious, these techniques seem very simple to me. Don't misunderstand me, simple is good! Simple is much more likely to work than complex when under chemical, emotional, and physical stress. I only point it out to ask if this is a common thread in the IKCA material, or if it is only because these are earlier techniques. I was also curious if the IKCA includes any EPAK techniques or if they are all original variants on EPAK material?

    Thanks for your reply.

    -Rob
    I'll try and clarify

    First, the two tech's you've joined in on are both orange level techniques. Being that I hold a 2nd degree black in American Kenpo it is my opinion that the IKCA orange techniques are no more simple than any other orange syllabus-more or less. But as frequently evidenced in this forum, not everybody agrees with me all the time. LOL For that I'm actually grateful as I've learned much from the members here and it would be boring if they did.

    The IKCA teaches a BASE 55 technique system. Some various extensions are taught to these at higher levels, but the idea is to encourage the student to think for themselves and be able to apply the basic principles of Kenpo.

    The misconception some have is that this is all they teach.

    Ideas are explored as to the "what ifs" concerned with previous belt levels at the following levels and the student utlizies principles like grafting and the equation formula to create their own extensions and techniques to different variables that may be encountered.

    "Knowledge is not enough, you must apply."-Bruce Lee

    With this concept in mind, a student can turn 55 techniques into 555, 5,555, or 55, 555, 555 and so forth. From my perspective this method adheres in the truest sense of the principle of "tailoring" as a student learns a base template of defense and then explores the principles that make it work and then re-explores the technique to see how the principles learned can be applied by them personally in many different ways. Does that make sense?

    And yes, the entire yellow belt syllabus would be considered EPAK consisting of techniques like "Delayed Sword", "Sword of Destruction", "Obscure Wing", "Lone Kimono", and "Thrusting Salute."

    But varients on EPAK? Not really. Just applied Kenpo principles. Kenpo isn't about 1-2-3 techniques, it's about applied principles of logic, physics, and other sciences. I suppose you could take one of two points of view on that and say either 1) If it works it must be Kenpo/Kempo or 2) Hey! Those guys are stealing our stuff! LOL I subscribe to the 1st.
    "It is sobering to reflect that one of the best ways to get yourself a reputation as a dangerous citizen these days is to go about repeating the very phrases which our founding fathers used in the struggle for independence." Charles A. Beard

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    Default Re: May 2007 IKCA Technique of the Month- Escaping Ram

    Quote Originally Posted by Celtic_Crippler View Post
    The same thing you do. We teach students to "graft" and/or use "the equation formula." I suppose "Squeezing the Peach" could work as an insert, but that was never one of my personal favorites during my time in American Kenpo.
    So, since I've asked twice now, and not gotten any response, should I just assume that you rely on speed to get the opponents hands away from the face when you execute the outward blocks to break the hold?

    Quote Originally Posted by Celtic_Crippler View Post
    Yes. We do teach Kenpo.
    So you do teach different kinds of coverouts? Do you teach any other than the three I listed?

    Quote Originally Posted by Celtic_Crippler View Post
    I'm glad you gleaned something positive from it.
    I'm glad you're glad.

    Quote Originally Posted by Celtic_Crippler View Post
    First, the two tech's you've joined in on are both orange level techniques. Being that I hold a 2nd degree black in American Kenpo it is my opinion that the IKCA orange techniques are no more simple than any other orange syllabus-more or less.
    I'd agree. The two techniques that you've listed don't seem any simpler than most of the low level techniques I was taught. I just didn't know if their degree of difficulty was indicative of the majority of the IKCA techniques, or just the low level ones.

    Quote Originally Posted by Celtic_Crippler View Post
    The IKCA teaches a BASE 55 technique system. Some various extensions are taught to these at higher levels, but the idea is to encourage the student to think for themselves and be able to apply the basic principles of Kenpo.

    The misconception some have is that this is all they teach.

    Ideas are explored as to the "what ifs" concerned with previous belt levels at the following levels and the student utlizies principles like grafting and the equation formula to create their own extensions and techniques to different variables that may be encountered.

    "Knowledge is not enough, you must apply."-Bruce Lee

    With this concept in mind, a student can turn 55 techniques into 555, 5,555, or 55, 555, 555 and so forth. From my perspective this method adheres in the truest sense of the principle of "tailoring" as a student learns a base template of defense and then explores the principles that make it work and then re-explores the technique to see how the principles learned can be applied by them personally in many different ways. Does that make sense?
    Oh! I get it now. You teach kenpo.

    Quote Originally Posted by Celtic_Crippler View Post
    And yes, the entire yellow belt syllabus would be considered EPAK consisting of techniques like "Delayed Sword", "Sword of Destruction", "Obscure Wing", "Lone Kimono", and "Thrusting Salute."

    But varients on EPAK? Not really. Just applied Kenpo principles. Kenpo isn't about 1-2-3 techniques, it's about applied principles of logic, physics, and other sciences. I suppose you could take one of two points of view on that and say either 1) If it works it must be Kenpo/Kempo or 2) Hey! Those guys are stealing our stuff! LOL I subscribe to the 1st.
    Ok, I don't entirely disagree with you here, but I think you would admit that there is a similarity between this technique and Squeezing the Peach, and that their is a similarity between Thrusting Release and Thrusting Prongs, which seems to be evidenced by the name itself.

    I'm not saying this material is stolen from EPAK. What I was taught was not strictly EPAK, although it contained many variants of the EPAK techniques, and what I teach now is clearly not the EPAK system, although it is noticeably similar and clearly has EPAK as its root. Perhaps you took my statement as offensive, but that wasn't how it was meant. These techniques seem to me to be recognizably influenced by existing material. Perhaps it's simply that great minds think alike.


    -Rob
    "All the time you're arguing over, is this kenpo, is that kenpo, you could be training!"

    -Senior Instructor Bobby Thomas

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    Default Re: May 2007 IKCA Technique of the Month- Escaping Ram

    Quote Originally Posted by DavidCC View Post
    Quote:
    Originally Posted by Thesemindz
    Do you address what to do about establishing a base to avoid being picked up, or controlling the arms to avoid the attacker transitioning into another hold or a choke?

    We've applied some things I learned from Doc Chapel when it comes to bear-hug attacks. Not so much a technique, just more of a mechanism for getting into a solid position from which to do my technique.

    We practice with pretty aggressive grab attacks, and from what we've tried, the best way to trap the attacker's hands is to clench both fists, and bring them sortof up to your chin, pinning his hands with your forearms

    Assuming that you were caught off guard to some extent, arms are pinned, there is also probably some amount of momentum to your 12. Not a tackle, just a collision as he grabs you. He's probably bigger than you, becasue smaller guys don't do this attack to bigger guys. So you are very likely to be forced to take a step forward as he locks in the hug.

    You don't have much choice (according to our assumptions) to take that step. As you realize "holy crap I've just been bear-hugged and forced to take a step", pin the arms and sink your weight down and forward while stomping with the foot that didn't move last. Now the crazy part -

    Take another step forward, not sure it matters which foot, say right. Step right, then left, then stomp the right foot as you settle into a horse stance, his arms still pinned. The pin, sinking the weight, and the forward movement should put you in a very good position - he won't have any leverage to pull you back, will be off-balanced with his arms pinned.

    Now, you can blast him in the way that you feel most appropriate
    Doc's got some great ideas, doesn't he?
    "All the time you're arguing over, is this kenpo, is that kenpo, you could be training!"

    -Senior Instructor Bobby Thomas

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    Default Re: May 2007 IKCA Technique of the Month- Escaping Ram

    Quote Originally Posted by Thesemindz View Post
    So, since I've asked twice now, and not gotten any response, should I just assume that you rely on speed to get the opponents hands away from the face when you execute the outward blocks to break the hold?
    A combination of the head butt, the bump, and the "outward blocks" serves this purpose. Either by themselves, or in tandem.
    (you do know what they say about "assuming.") lol


    Quote Originally Posted by Thesemindz
    So you do teach different kinds of coverouts? Do you teach any other than the three I listed?
    Yes.



    Quote Originally Posted by Thesemindz
    I'm glad you're glad.
    Super! At least we're all happy.



    Quote Originally Posted by Thesemindz
    I'd agree. The two techniques that you've listed don't seem any simpler than most of the low level techniques I was taught. I just didn't know if their degree of difficulty was indicative of the majority of the IKCA techniques, or just the low level ones.
    At the risk of a warning from my fellow mod's, that statement is just plain asinine. Why in the world would you think the IKCA system's entire curriculum is simple based on low level techniques if the system of Kenpo you studied isn't?



    Quote Originally Posted by Thesemindz
    Oh! I get it now. You teach kenpo.
    About time!



    Quote Originally Posted by Thesemindz
    Ok, I don't entirely disagree with you here, but I think you would admit that there is a similarity between this technique and Squeezing the Peach, and that their is a similarity between Thrusting Release and Thrusting Prongs, which seems to be evidenced by the name itself.
    Other than type of attack? There's no "peach" squeezing involved. LOL But sure, you could graft any aspect of a rear bear hug defense into any other.

    Quote Originally Posted by Thesemindz
    I'm not saying this material is stolen from EPAK. What I was taught was not strictly EPAK, although it contained many variants of the EPAK techniques, and what I teach now is clearly not the EPAK system, although it is noticeably similar and clearly has EPAK as its root. Perhaps you took my statement as offensive, but that wasn't how it was meant. These techniques seem to me to be recognizably influenced by existing material. Perhaps it's simply that great minds think alike.
    I would venture to say that what most people are taught these days in many schools isn't strictly EPAK, but influenced by a great many things and/or people.

    What ties Kenpo together, other than lineage, is the fact that they follow the same principles of logic and applied sciences. So yes, great minds would think alike! However, the primary difference I see in most organizations/schools is in their methodology in the approach to teaching these principles.
    "It is sobering to reflect that one of the best ways to get yourself a reputation as a dangerous citizen these days is to go about repeating the very phrases which our founding fathers used in the struggle for independence." Charles A. Beard

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    Default Re: May 2007 IKCA Technique of the Month- Escaping Ram

    Quote Originally Posted by Thesemindz View Post
    Doc's got some great ideas, doesn't he?
    Please, try the 2 step absorb and let me know what you think. And what does your uke think of it?

    Also put the hand trap to the test too. You wrote grab wrists and pull down, please, try the fore-arm lock too.

    I am very curious if you get similar results to ours.

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    Talking Re: May 2007 IKCA Technique of the Month- Escaping Ram

    Quote Originally Posted by Celtic_Crippler View Post
    A combination of the head butt, the bump, and the "outward blocks" serves this purpose. Either by themselves, or in tandem.
    (you do know what they say about "assuming.") lol
    You know man, you got a real unpleasant tone. I tried to ask specific questions at the head of this thread, so that I could avoid the misunderstandings of the last one. You failed to answer my questions, repeatedly, then you want to insinuate that I'm being a behind?

    Quote Originally Posted by Celtic_Crippler View Post
    Yes.
    So I can only assume, there's that word again (prove me wrong), that you have no desire to discuss coverouts, since again, I've tried to engage you in that line of discussion repeatedly, and you've again refused to answer. Fine.

    Quote Originally Posted by Celtic_Crippler View Post
    Super! At least we're all happy.
    Awesomesauce!!!!



    Quote Originally Posted by Celtic_Crippler View Post
    At the risk of a warning from my fellow mod's, that statement is just plain asinine. Why in the world would you think the IKCA system's entire curriculum is simple based on low level techniques if the system of Kenpo you studied isn't?
    Because many systems of martial arts are extremely simple, and I have no exposure to IKCA material, except here. There are entire arts which are based on simple series of basic maneuvers, especially systems based on self-defense. Krav maga, western boxing, tae-kwon-do, and many reality based self defense systems, but you're right. I'm being asinine by asking you a question. Silly me, I though you could provide a sensible response.

    Quote Originally Posted by Celtic_Crippler View Post
    About time!
    Oh well.

    Quote Originally Posted by Celtic_Crippler View Post
    Other than type of attack? There's no "peach" squeezing involved. LOL But sure, you could graft any aspect of a rear bear hug defense into any other.
    Ok, I can understand your confusion here. The version of squeezing the peach which I was taught began with a rear head butt to the opponent's face, but apparently in EPAK and some other versions, this move is not included in the technique. Fair enough. You still didn't address the similarity between Thusting Release and Thrusting Prongs, but you were probably too busy Laughing Out Loud. It happens.

    Quote Originally Posted by Celtic_Crippler View Post
    I would venture to say that what most people are taught these days in many schools isn't strictly EPAK, but influenced by a great many things and/or people.
    I would venture to say you're probably right.

    Quote Originally Posted by Celtic_Crippler View Post
    What ties Kenpo together, other than lineage, is the fact that they follow the same principles of logic and applied sciences. So yes, great minds would think alike! However, the primary difference I see in most organizations/schools is in their methodology in the approach to teaching these principles.
    There's some truth to this, but the term Kenpo just isn't as descriptive as it was in the seventies and eighties. Ron Chapel could go on for a while about this, but Kenpo is almost as nonspecific a term as karate is nowadays, and so just saying you teach Kenpo doesn't really describe what you do anymore. That's why I tried to find out more. But since you don't really care to discuss, only to act smart, I suppose I'll just ask someone else.


    -Rob
    "All the time you're arguing over, is this kenpo, is that kenpo, you could be training!"

    -Senior Instructor Bobby Thomas

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    Default Re: May 2007 IKCA Technique of the Month- Escaping Ram

    Quote Originally Posted by Thesemindz View Post
    You know man, you got a real unpleasant tone. I tried to ask specific questions at the head of this thread, so that I could avoid the misunderstandings of the last one. You failed to answer my questions, repeatedly, then you want to insinuate that I'm being a behind?
    Your "tone" from the beginning has been recieved as unpleasent, but I've tried to be patient. I'll attempt to clarify a few more things for you.


    Quote Originally Posted by Thesemindz
    So I can only assume, there's that word again (prove me wrong), that you have no desire to discuss coverouts, since again, I've tried to engage you in that line of discussion repeatedly, and you've again refused to answer. Fine.
    This thread is not about coverouts. Please feel free to start a separate thread on covering out. I'm sure many would benefit from a discussion on that particular aspect of kenpo.


    Quote Originally Posted by Thesemindz
    Because many systems of martial arts are extremely simple, and I have no exposure to IKCA material, except here. There are entire arts which are based on simple series of basic maneuvers, especially systems based on self-defense. Krav maga, western boxing, tae-kwon-do, and many reality based self defense systems, but you're right. I'm being asinine by asking you a question. Silly me, I though you could provide a sensible response.
    Kenpo is based on a series of simple maneuvers eventually combined into more complex combinations of same maneuvers. ALL kenpo I've been exposed to builds on the basics. This simple understanding in our art is generally universally known. Your comments were completely asinine.



    Quote Originally Posted by Thesemindz
    Ok, I can understand your confusion here. The version of squeezing the peach which I was taught began with a rear head butt to the opponent's face, but apparently in EPAK and some other versions, this move is not included in the technique. Fair enough.
    No confusion. Do you know why the technique "Sueezing the Peach" was so named?

    Quote Originally Posted by Thesemindz
    You still didn't address the similarity between Thusting Release and Thrusting Prongs, but you were probably too busy Laughing Out Loud. It happens.
    This post would be better suited on the thread discussing the technique "Thrusing Release."



    Quote Originally Posted by Thesemindz
    There's some truth to this, but the term Kenpo just isn't as descriptive as it was in the seventies and eighties. Ron Chapel could go on for a while about this, but Kenpo is almost as nonspecific a term as karate is nowadays, and so just saying you teach Kenpo doesn't really describe what you do anymore. That's why I tried to find out more. But since you don't really care to discuss, only to act smart, I suppose I'll just ask someone else.

    -Rob
    And Doc has on several occasions.

    I took for granted based on your rank and experience that you were familiar with Kenpo and some of it's history. That being said, I also took for granted that you would know who Chuck Sullivan was and thereby know that what his system teaches is indeed Kenpo. I obviously was mistaken and myself fell prey to "assuming" and the pitfalls that accompany it. I apologize.

    If you follow the below links you can learn more about the IKCA, Chuck Sullivan, Vic LeRoux, and how it all relates back to Ed Parker and Kenpo in general. Hope these help to shed some light.

    http://www.karateconnection.com/who.htm

    http://www.karateconnection.com/tree.htm

    http://www.karateconnection.com/IKCA1.PDF

    http://www.karateconnection.com/articles.htm
    "It is sobering to reflect that one of the best ways to get yourself a reputation as a dangerous citizen these days is to go about repeating the very phrases which our founding fathers used in the struggle for independence." Charles A. Beard

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    Default Re: May 2007 IKCA Technique of the Month- Escaping Ram

    When doing the 'butt bump' portion of this technique, I've been including into it a drop down into a wider stance...almost a horse. So after the initial thrust out with the hips and back with the head into the opponent's nose, the next move is a simultaneous butt bump (deep!), movement of the arms outward into a double downward-outward block, and a drop in stance by widening the feet.

    That backwards bump should be HARD...sufficient to knock the opponent back at least a step or more.

    The end result of the drop in stance is more momentum into the bump, and it raises the opponent's hands in relation to your body...moves them up onto a skinnier portion, again loosening his hold, hopefully freeing you of his grip.

    Make sense?

    Anyone else train this way?

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    Default Re: May 2007 IKCA Technique of the Month- Escaping Ram

    Quote Originally Posted by Kenpo-Owl View Post
    When doing the 'butt bump' portion of this technique, I've been including into it a drop down into a wider stance...almost a horse. So after the initial thrust out with the hips and back with the head into the opponent's nose, the next move is a simultaneous butt bump (deep!), movement of the arms outward into a double downward-outward block, and a drop in stance by widening the feet.

    That backwards bump should be HARD...sufficient to knock the opponent back at least a step or more.

    The end result of the drop in stance is more momentum into the bump, and it raises the opponent's hands in relation to your body...moves them up onto a skinnier portion, again loosening his hold, hopefully freeing you of his grip.

    Make sense?

    Anyone else train this way?
    Absolutely.

    I've had to take a couple of adjustment steps after the bump before because my uke was quite out of range. LOL I imagine that if there were obstacles or items in your surroundings (charis, tables, etc) the attacker could end up tripping over them and/or falling as a result of a good "bump."
    "It is sobering to reflect that one of the best ways to get yourself a reputation as a dangerous citizen these days is to go about repeating the very phrases which our founding fathers used in the struggle for independence." Charles A. Beard

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    Default Re: May 2007 IKCA Technique of the Month- Escaping Ram

    Quote Originally Posted by Celtic_Crippler View Post
    Absolutely.

    I've had to take a couple of adjustment steps after the bump before because my uke was quite out of range. LOL I imagine that if there were obstacles or items in your surroundings (charis, tables, etc) the attacker could end up tripping over them and/or falling as a result of a good "bump."
    the bump moved the attacker away from you (to 6) out of range? That doesn't sound like a good idea, increasing the range that far. It's like prematurely ending the technique, now you are into the next attack.

    What made him release the grip? Wasn't the bump simultaneous with the headbutt, if so he hasn't released yet. ??

    Does anyone have any specific mechanisms for absorbing the momentum of the hug and for preventing him from lifting/throwing you?

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    Default Re: May 2007 IKCA Technique of the Month- Escaping Ram

    Quote Originally Posted by DavidCC View Post
    the bump moved the attacker away from you (to 6) out of range? That doesn't sound like a good idea, increasing the range that far. It's like prematurely ending the technique, now you are into the next attack.

    What made him release the grip? Wasn't the bump simultaneous with the headbutt, if so he hasn't released yet. ??

    Does anyone have any specific mechanisms for absorbing the momentum of the hug and for preventing him from lifting/throwing you?
    The headbutt is as immediate and spontaneous as possible. When executing the head butt thrust your hips forward (head back/hips forward). The bump occurs in the second step to try and get them off of your back, so to speak.

    If the attacker is moving forward with some momentum, I have found it neceassry to settle prior to the headbutt. If the attacker is attempting a "lift" there is not as much forward momentum and the headbutt can disuade them from continuing their effort. I then settle after the execution of the headbutt as I commit to step two. As always, the variables of the attack will dictate some adjustment.
    "It is sobering to reflect that one of the best ways to get yourself a reputation as a dangerous citizen these days is to go about repeating the very phrases which our founding fathers used in the struggle for independence." Charles A. Beard

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    Default Re: May 2007 IKCA Technique of the Month- Escaping Ram

    Quote Originally Posted by DavidCC View Post
    the bump moved the attacker away from you (to 6) out of range? That doesn't sound like a good idea, increasing the range that far. It's like prematurely ending the technique, now you are into the next attack.

    What made him release the grip? Wasn't the bump simultaneous with the headbutt, if so he hasn't released yet. ??

    Does anyone have any specific mechanisms for absorbing the momentum of the hug and for preventing him from lifting/throwing you?
    I've found that, along with the kind of stepping you describe in your post related to Doc, there are several basic bear hug defense stratagies that are important to employ.

    "Sitting" in the hug helps to prevent being picked up. Dropping your weight down and widening your stance helps to prevent the lift, kinda like the way going limp makes you harder to lift. It's not foolproof, and an unusually strong opp. can still lift you up, so you have to be ready to adjust.

    Another basic movement which we picked up from grappling is called "grapevining." It is a method of hooking your foot around your opp. legs, either on the inside or outside, to tie yourself to his base and prevent him from lifting you. It's important to only grapevine with one foot though, because he can drop you, and if both feet are tied up, you'll land on your knees or face and hurt your ankles.

    The key is to constantly adjust. If he picks you up, kicks to the groin and yes, back head butts. If he drops you, re-establish your base. Continue to control his hands so he can't regrip or transition to a different attack. Turn towards your opp. to change the angle from parallel stances to perpendicular positioning. This will open up targets on your opp. body and create paths of entry for your weapons. Basic strikes like stomps and scrapes on your opp. legs will cause him to begin to adjust to your actions, giving you the initiative. Finger peeling and short strikes to the radial and ulnar nerves on the opp. arms can help break his grip. Pummeling, which is kind of like a swimming motion with your arms, can help you to free one or both arms, allowing for a greater range of striking options.

    There are many basic movements which exist outside the techniques which are important, effective mechanisms for improving bear hug defenses in general. Just as there are basic concepts for defenses against punches (step off the line), circular kicks (move in, out, or up the circle), and locks (move ahead of the lock to create time to defend), etc., there are basic defenses which can be employed against bear hugs, and in reality, these movements will almost certainly have to be employed to some degree in order to create an opportunity to execute the technique itself.


    -Rob
    "All the time you're arguing over, is this kenpo, is that kenpo, you could be training!"

    -Senior Instructor Bobby Thomas

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    Default Re: May 2007 IKCA Technique of the Month- Escaping Ram

    Quote Originally Posted by Thesemindz View Post
    I've found that, along with the kind of stepping you describe in your post related to Doc, there are several basic bear hug defense stratagies that are important to employ.

    ...

    There are many basic movements which exist outside the techniques which are important, effective mechanisms for improving bear hug defenses in general.

    -Rob
    Over the last year or so we've been looking for these in our techniques and how we practice and teach them. I had this realization, I kept seeing students struggle with a technique and then one day they suddenly get it. What I saw happening was that they had finally picked up, conciously or not, on the little extra ingredients that made the tech work. Usually we (the senior belts) were not even concious of them either! So now I look for them, study them, and teach them as part of the technique whenever possible.

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