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Thread: April 2007 IKCA Technique of the Month- Thrusting Release

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    Default April 2007 IKCA Technique of the Month- Thrusting Release

    Better late than never! This should generate some good discussion about the use of head butts.

    Thrusting Release (escape from a front bear hug, arms pinned)
    • Execute a front head butt to attacker’s nose/cheek
    • Execute a right front knee to attacker’s groin
    • Drop back into a left forward lunge stance simultaneously executing double palm heel strikes to attacker’s floating ribs
    • Execute a right thrusting ball kick to attacker’s midsection
    * Principles: back up mass, marriage of gravity, opposing force
    "It is sobering to reflect that one of the best ways to get yourself a reputation as a dangerous citizen these days is to go about repeating the very phrases which our founding fathers used in the struggle for independence." – Charles A. Beard

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    Default Re: April 2007 IKCA Technique of the Month- Thrusting Release

    ok here's my opinions on what is written, bear in mind I am not familiar with ikca techniques and am just going by what I read here

    1. *headbutt* as the initial move? that's going to get you sent down for assault! In my opinion, entirely inappropriate in a self-defence technique.

    2. Knee to the groin - might cause the attacker's head to come back in towards you?!! might also cause the attacker to tighten his grip on you for support?

    3. Dropping back with the base (legs) and striking forwards with the arms/hands seems a little uncoordinate - split power etc.

    4. Which leg are you kicking with?

    Where is 'back-up mass' found in this technique? Where are the other principles you mention to be found?

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    Default Re: April 2007 IKCA Technique of the Month- Thrusting Release

    ok here's my opinions on what is written, bear in mind I am not familiar with ikca techniques and am just going by what I read here

    1. *headbutt* as the initial move? that's going to get you sent down for assault! In my opinion, entirely inappropriate in a self-defence technique.
    I knew the "headbutt" would probably be a key point of discussion. LOL. Since your arms are pinned your weapons are limited. The headbutt is meant to distract and encourage the attacker to loosen, or even release their hold on you prior to executing the knee.

    2. Knee to the groin - might cause the attacker's head to come back in towards you?!! might also cause the attacker to tighten his grip on you for support?
    Keeping in mind that any technique is meant to flow, the knee is executed right after the headbutt but you do not plant your right leg back into the same position. Following the knee, the right leg drops back into what we call a "lunge" stance which is similar to a forward bow except the leg is not locked and you are resting on the ball of your foot. This "loads" it in preparation for the follow up kick by placing tension on the calf so that you can "spring/exlplode" into the kick immediately. The basic maneuver itself moves your torse back so that if the attackers head drops you should be out of range of a retaliatory headbutt from them not to mention that the palm heels help position the attacker further away from you.

    3. Dropping back with the base (legs) and striking forwards with the arms/hands seems a little uncoordinate - split power etc.
    This seemed a little awkward to me at first as well until I got the "flow" of the technique down. It actually helps to drop your weight slightly by bending your left knee a little when executing the previous right knee strike to the attackers groin. As the right leg plants back in preparation for the kick the palm heel strikes to the floating ribs assist in getting the attacker off of you completely. It should be no more uncoordinated than striking outward while planting into a forward bow.

    4. Which leg are you kicking with? Doh! The right.

    Where is 'back-up mass' found in this technique? Where are the other principles you mention to be found? Off the top of my head...BUM: The thrusting ball kick for example. MOG: aids with head butt. OF: Execution of palm heel strikes. I'm sure other IKCA members with more experience could elaborate more. "hint-hint"

    "It is sobering to reflect that one of the best ways to get yourself a reputation as a dangerous citizen these days is to go about repeating the very phrases which our founding fathers used in the struggle for independence." – Charles A. Beard

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    Default Re: April 2007 IKCA Technique of the Month- Thrusting Release

    Quote Originally Posted by JamesB View Post
    ok here's my opinions on what is written, bear in mind I am not familiar with ikca techniques and am just going by what I read here

    1. *headbutt* as the initial move? that's going to get you sent down for assault! In my opinion, entirely inappropriate in a self-defence technique.

    2. Knee to the groin - might cause the attacker's head to come back in towards you?!! might also cause the attacker to tighten his grip on you for support?

    3. Dropping back with the base (legs) and striking forwards with the arms/hands seems a little uncoordinate - split power etc.

    4. Which leg are you kicking with?

    Where is 'back-up mass' found in this technique? Where are the other principles you mention to be found?
    Can I butt in here?

    I'm guessing that the head butt and the knee to the groin should, after learning by the numbers, be done as one movement. So, your head checks his head as the knee strikes the groin. Also sends mixed signals to his CNS- jerk the head away from the butt, or squat and go slack from the groin strike? Usually results in synaptic overload and lock up.

    The foot would plant back from the knee strike as the hands thrust forward woul use opposing forces. I can sort of visualize a strong structural triangle here as well, from the trailing foot up through the hands being the hypotenuse, or solid bracing angle. This is similar to Thrusting Prongs.

    Backup mass? Well, as I understand it, using your structure to generate power would fall under this principle. True, he's not really moving forward or back. But he is changing his body structure pretty radically.

    As to the legalities of headbutting- a grab is a seriouse assault, and so a seriouse response is justified. Further, I doubt you'll hit his face with your head anywhere but in class. Most people don't stand with their face in front of you when they bear hug you. You'll be doing good to hit his cheek or ear with your forehead. But, if you do happen to break his nose with your forehead, thing is it just happened. Your body contracted and the head came forward when you tried to get a knee up between you to prevent the bear hug. Too bad that ruptured his testicles as well. Guess you was afeared and didn't realize how hard you was reacting.

    Dan C

    Edit: bah! CC posted while I was typing. Looks like I'm a little off. You do the headbutt, then the knee? Why not together? Same with the double heel palms and the plant. Why not simultaneosly? Seems to me you'd generate more power and have better flow this way. Maybe the reason lies with using the lunge instead of a forward bow. I like that part- springing quickly off the lunge to kick him. Just not sure it is worth the trade off with a strong bracing posture as you drive the heel palms in. Augh! I havn't been responding to technique threads lately because I can't go try the ideas out. Frustrating as hell! Sorry. Should have known better...
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    Default Re: April 2007 IKCA Technique of the Month- Thrusting Release

    *headbutt* as the initial move? that's going to get you sent down for assault! In my opinion, entirely inappropriate in a self-defence technique.

    Come on please with sugar on top.....the dumb bastard should not have grabbed ya in the first place....

    Regards,
    Carl

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    Default Re: April 2007 IKCA Technique of the Month- Thrusting Release

    Everyone's going to have their own opinions on whether head-butt is acceptable or not (I will stick to my guns; it is not appropriate). But has anyone considered the consequences on one's own body when performing the butt? Not the impact per se, but the alignment (postive or negative) that you put your body into? Does a headbutt contribute, or negate from your own structural integrity?

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    Default Re: April 2007 IKCA Technique of the Month- Thrusting Release

    Quote Originally Posted by thedan View Post
    Can I butt in here?
    groan :-D


    Quote Originally Posted by thedan View Post
    As to the legalities of headbutting- a grab is a seriouse assault, and so a seriouse response is justified. Further, I doubt you'll hit his face with your head anywhere but in class. Most people don't stand with their face in front of you when they bear hug you. You'll be doing good to hit his cheek or ear with your forehead.
    I was thinking the same. If the guy is giving a realistic attack in the first place, his body and head will be tight against you anyway (his head against the top of your chest/shoulder for his own protection) - there will be no target for the headbutt. This is why techniques such as Thrusting Prongs and Tripping Arrow exist in the EPAK systems. A headbutt would be a poor response to this form of attack, in my opinion.

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    Default Re: April 2007 IKCA Technique of the Month- Thrusting Release

    Quote Originally Posted by JamesB View Post
    groan :-D
    Yeah, my wit is about on a par with my wisdom. You'll all just have to get over it!

    I was thinking the same. If the guy is giving a realistic attack in the first place, his body and head will be tight against you anyway (his head against the top of your chest/shoulder for his own protection) - there will be no target for the headbutt. This is why techniques such as Thrusting Prongs and Tripping Arrow exist in the EPAK systems. A headbutt would be a poor response to this form of attack, in my opinion.
    Yes, if he's a trained grapler he'll have his head in tight and low. No target for the head butt. However, some average street types don't quite get in this tight. Still, they aren't likely to present a good target for a head butt. This, and your point about structure, is why I thought you'd want to do the moves simultaneosly. The butt is a natural part of body core contraction, which helps create space and adds power to the rising knee strike. So, even if there is no target, the "head butt" could still be useful. Now that I think about it, I'd probably start pulling the hands up at this time as well, getting ready for an immediate thrust with a plant back into a forward bow. Sort of like compressing a spring, then letting everything fly out as you release the spring.

    Dan (getting anxiouse to try this stuff) C
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    Kenpo-Owl is offline
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    Default Re: April 2007 IKCA Technique of the Month- Thrusting Release

    OK...I'm new to IKCA kenpo, and have been learning this technique, so I'll jump in for fun, and have the REAL IKCA pro's around here square me away if I'm wrong.

    If his head/face is appropriately positioned, the headbutt would be devestating. Contact with the bridge of his nose would blind him momentarily, and seriously disorient him. The intent is to do exactly that...and to set him up for the rest of the technique. In a real life situation, if someone grabbed me and DIDN'T have his head in the right spot, I'd likely skip it and move to the knee/double palm thrust.

    The headbutt is done by itself as the very INITIAL and IMMEDIATE response to the attacker closing in and grabbing you.

    The knee is brought up as you move your hands up prepatory to the double palm thrust...that's your next movement. You drive the knee up into the groin, and your hands come up along your sides and line up for the rib strike.

    The double palm strike to the ribs is executed as your right leg moves back into the lunge. It doesn't drop back to the ground, but instead it rebounds from the contact with the groin straight back into the lunge stance. Kind of an 'opposing forces' move, IMHO. It's like you're counter-balancing the leg going out behind you with the palm strike going out in front of you. At the same time, this is all lowering your OWN height some...hopefully continuing to drop you out of the circle of the attacker's arms. The double palm strike creates a THIRD 'pain zone' on the attacker...in a matter of moments, he's been given a broken/bloody nose, a knee to the stones, and now a double shot to the floating ribs...which COULD cause some serious injury, but more likely will result in an immediate evacuation of air from his body. The strike ALSO knocks the attacker back AWAY from you...good goal when you're RESPONDING to an attack. It gives you some space to generate a little reaction time if things didn't go completely as planned during the technique.

    Finally, the thrusting kick comes in. Again...blasts the attacker back, gives you a moment to settle into a stance if you choose, or more likely to assess the situation and determine what you need to do next to end the conflict.

    Square me away if I've got it wrong guys...

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    Default Re: April 2007 IKCA Technique of the Month- Thrusting Release

    Don't worry about the headbutt. In my State, when he grabbed you he committed Simple Battery ("contact of a provoking nature") and I would be justified in using that tech (if I chose to in the first place). You might get caught up in aggravated battery or assault, but that goes back to articulation. "I was in fear of my life (or felt the threat of great bodily harm was present)" and so justified in using that force which is neccesary to stop the threat.

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    Default Re: April 2007 IKCA Technique of the Month- Thrusting Release

    The good thing about a headbutt...is that they're always easy to claim as an accident. It wasn't "I headbutted him in the nose", it was "he bashed his nose on my head when he came in and grabbed me".

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    Default Re: April 2007 IKCA Technique of the Month- Thrusting Release

    Have any of you tried this against realistic bear hugs? It seems that the base would need a lot of changes with different scenarios. I understand this is how the IKCA likes to do things- learning to modify the base tech as the situation requires. So I'm curiouse as to what you have found works.

    For example, if the guy is a trained grappler you won't get either the headbutt or the groin strike on him. He'll be low and in tight. How do you do this tech in that case? Or do you have something else?

    What about the guy that gets you in a bear hug and is moving laterally at the same time?

    Not picking on you. I asked the same things about Thrusting Prongs, and found I could modify it fairly effectively. Just curiouse to hear how the "dark side" does things.

    Dan C

    Edit: just noticed my post count. I'll probably get hammered for this one, numerologically speaking.
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    Default Re: April 2007 IKCA Technique of the Month- Thrusting Release

    Against a realistic bear-hug? Realistically, most guys are rarely going to be caught in a bear hug like this, from the front with the arms pinned down to the sides. Women might be caught up in an attack like this, due to the size/mass difference. I could see this type of attack in a 'domestic assault' circumstance.

    But really, this kind of attack isn't a likely attack to begin with.

    And this kind of attack done by a trained grappler? Not gonna happen...unless it's done in a fast rush with the plan to IMMEDIATELY pick you up and take you to the ground. That means you'll be dealing with a LOT of forward momentum...so these strikes would be even MORE effective. IF he comes in low...lower your own stance as he comes in. Or throw a knee up into his face as he moves in, preventing the hug and avoiding the whole technique.

    I can't imagine any other potential reason why a trained grappler, or a trained fighter of any kind would use this type of attack. Against an unskilled attacker, landing the headbutt and knee doesn't seem that unlikely to me.

    Just my thoughts at least.

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    Default Re: April 2007 IKCA Technique of the Month- Thrusting Release

    IF there is a lot of forward momentum you'll have to ensure you can regain your footing before trying to launch a headbutt or a knee, or you WILL end up on your butt or your back. Either attack from an unstable platform will end you on the bottom and you get to play BJJ.
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    Default Re: April 2007 IKCA Technique of the Month- Thrusting Release

    Come on please with sugar on top.....the dumb bastard should not have grabbed ya in the first place....

    Regards,
    Carl[/quote]

    I agree! At 5'11" & 230lbs throwing over 360- I don't get this attack often. (My job puts me in the path of some very emotionally charged and often impaired people and I still don't see this)

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    Default Re: April 2007 IKCA Technique of the Month- Thrusting Release

    Quote Originally Posted by JamesB View Post
    I was thinking the same. If the guy is giving a realistic attack in the first place, his body and head will be tight against you anyway (his head against the top of your chest/shoulder for his own protection) - there will be no target for the headbutt. This is why techniques such as Thrusting Prongs and Tripping Arrow exist in the EPAK systems. A headbutt would be a poor response to this form of attack, in my opinion.
    First off this is not an EPAK technique, secondly most street encounters do not have a person trained enough to know to keep their head in while giving a bear hug. A lot of wannabe UFC'ers out there will not keep their head in tight against you, they will be scared as soon as you start moving your head.
    Quality outweighs quantity every time.

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    Default Re: April 2007 IKCA Technique of the Month- Thrusting Release

    Quote Originally Posted by thedan View Post

    For example, if the guy is a trained grappler you won't get either the headbutt or the groin strike on him. He'll be low and in tight. How do you do this tech in that case? Or do you have something else?



    Dan C

    Edit: just noticed my post count. I'll probably get hammered for this one, numerologically speaking.
    Just like in EPAK they will another technique to use in that instance. In reality when do most fights occur? In a setting that has alcohol. Who usually ends up in those fights? People that have been enjoying a little too much of the alcohol. When intoxicated people make mistakes, and usually big ones, so if the guy is a wannabe grappler he will make a mistake, or his balance will be off, or any number of other variables can happen to change things.

    Usually we look at the ideal situation for these techniques and build from there.
    Quality outweighs quantity every time.

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    JamesB is offline
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    Default Re: April 2007 IKCA Technique of the Month- Thrusting Release

    Quote Originally Posted by Rob Broad View Post
    First off this is not an EPAK technique, secondly most street encounters do not have a person trained enough to know to keep their head in while giving a bear hug. A lot of wannabe UFC'ers out there will not keep their head in tight against you, they will be scared as soon as you start moving your head.
    I don't agree. It is far more instinctual for a person to want to protect themselves (their face and vision), you don't need to be trained to keep your face away from potential danger. If the attack is to grab, control and hussle backwards, their body will be tight against yours, their face turned away and pressed tight against you also. The desire for self-protection is strong even when mindlessly attacking.

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    Default Re: April 2007 IKCA Technique of the Month- Thrusting Release

    Quote Originally Posted by Kenpo-Owl View Post
    Against a realistic bear-hug? Realistically, most guys are rarely going to be caught in a bear hug like this, from the front with the arms pinned down to the sides. Women might be caught up in an attack like this, due to the size/mass difference. I could see this type of attack in a 'domestic assault' circumstance.

    But really, this kind of attack isn't a likely attack to begin with.
    Consider this: A guy turns around to you (maybe you bumped his arm, accidently spilling his drink) - you don't know why, but whatever you say is not calming him down. He's now in your face, really close, and before you know it he's launched into you, pinning your arms and driving you back.

    You don't think that kind of scenario is likely? That a situation will escalate before you are prepared for it? The front-bearhug attack will be *sudden*. You won't be prepared - if you saw it coming you could have knocked him out well before he got close enough to grab you. The attacker won't just walk up to you and grab. He'll already be close, talking to you, distracting you.

    Quote Originally Posted by Kenpo-Owl View Post
    I can't imagine any other potential reason why a trained grappler, or a trained fighter of any kind would use this type of attack. Against an unskilled attacker, landing the headbutt and knee doesn't seem that unlikely to me.

    Just my thoughts at least.
    Why does everything have to parallel UFC/sports grappling? Trained or untrained, people are people, they go to bars or busy places, they get angry, frightened, whatever. You may even know the guy but he's having a bad day maybe. Putting these techniques into the correct context is important, they are not isolated moves where the guy calmly walks up to you....

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    Default Re: April 2007 IKCA Technique of the Month- Thrusting Release

    Quote Originally Posted by Kenpo-Owl View Post
    ... In a real life situation, if someone grabbed me and DIDN'T have his head in the right spot, I'd likely skip it and move to the knee/double palm thrust. The headbutt is done by itself as the very INITIAL and IMMEDIATE response to the attacker closing in and grabbing you.

    The knee is brought up as you move your hands up prepatory to the double palm thrust...that's your next movement. You drive the knee up into the groin, and your hands come up along your sides and line up for the rib strike.

    The double palm strike to the ribs is executed as your right leg moves back into the lunge. ...
    Thanks. I cansee that, except I'd still thiink the head butt should be done as part of body core contraction simultaneose with the rising knee and bringing up the hands. Just curiouse why you all do it as a seperate move, after the initial "by the numbers" learning sequence, of course.

    Dan C
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