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Thread: May 2017 TOM - Fists of Fury

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    Default May 2017 TOM - Fists of Fury

    Fists Of Fury:
    Inside Defense Against a Right Punch

    1) Drop back into a right neutral bow executing a left rear outward block simultaneously with a right inward block (double block)
    *Left hand strikes radial nerve right hand strikes biceps

    2) Transitioning into a forward lunge execute a right back knuckle strike to attackers right temple immediately followed by a left fore-knuckle strike to the same target
    *right hand continues to travel chambering at right hip while left hand checks for incoming action

    3) Transition back into a neutral bow executing a right uppercut punch to attackers left floating rib/solar plexus

    4) Left foot steps up the circle as you execute a left back knuckle to attackers left temple
    *right hand moves up and chambers for final strike (close to right ear) footwork positions you to use torque for the next strike

    5) Pivot, settle, and use the torque in executing a right fore knuckle to attackers left temple - cover out
    Be careful what you say, some may take it the wrong way.

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    Default Re: May 2017 TOM - Fists of Fury

    This seems to be a variation of EPAK's Five Swords. In either technique, I find commiting two arms to blocking that punch a bit over the top, especially in the face of the threat posed by the attacker's other arm.

    When you use the front arm for blocking, keep the back arm (referred to as "live hand" in some systems) ready for independent action, which here could be checking the attacker's right arm simultaneously with the strike performed by the front arm.

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    Default Re: May 2017 TOM - Fists of Fury

    Quote Originally Posted by Star Dragon View Post
    This seems to be a variation of EPAK's Five Swords. In either technique, I find commiting two arms to blocking that punch a bit over the top, especially in the face of the threat posed by the attacker's other arm.

    When you use the front arm for blocking, keep the back arm (referred to as "live hand" in some systems) ready for independent action, which here could be checking the attacker's right arm simultaneously with the strike performed by the front arm.
    I also have trouble with the "uppercut." How are you going to uppercut a vertical target created by the strikes to the head. Contrary to popular belief, "upper cuts" go up, not forward.
    "Nothing is more dangerous than the conscientiously ignorant, or the sincerely stupid." - Martin Luther King Jr.

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    Default Re: May 2017 TOM - Fists of Fury

    Quote Originally Posted by Doc View Post
    I also have trouble with the "uppercut." How are you going to uppercut a vertical target created by the strikes to the head. Contrary to popular belief, "upper cuts" go up, not forward.
    I have learned that in Mr. Parker's own performance of Five Swords, the heel palm to the chin was designed to straighten the opponent up, making the mid section more vulnerable to a straight or even downward chopping punch.

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    Default Re: May 2017 TOM - Fists of Fury

    Quote Originally Posted by Star Dragon View Post
    I have learned that in Mr. Parker's own performance of Five Swords, the heel palm to the chin was designed to straighten the opponent up, making the mid section more vulnerable to a straight or even downward chopping punch.
    You are correct sir. Somewhere along the line people began using the term "uppercut" for what Mr. Parker described as an "inverted horizontal punch." And as you stated, the execution of the punch as Mr. Parker shared with me in Five Swords is a vertical punch downward at a 45-dgree angle. Targeting the zyphoid process between CV-14-15 to create the desired next posture and to "Seal the Breath" causing the diaphragm to spasm.
    "Nothing is more dangerous than the conscientiously ignorant, or the sincerely stupid." - Martin Luther King Jr.

    "Knowledge speaks but wisdom listens." - Ed Parker Sr.

    "It's much easier to quote, than to know." - Ron Chapél


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    Default Re: May 2017 TOM - Fists of Fury

    Quote Originally Posted by Doc View Post
    You are correct sir. Somewhere along the line people began using the term "uppercut" for what Mr. Parker described as an "inverted horizontal punch." And as you stated, the execution of the punch as Mr. Parker shared with me in Five Swords is a vertical punch downward at a 45-dgree angle. Targeting the zyphoid process between CV-14-15 to create the desired next posture and to "Seal the Breath" causing the diaphragm to spasm.
    Did the punch chop downward at a 45-degree angle laterally, i.e., from right-top to left-bottom?

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    Default Re: May 2017 TOM - Fists of Fury

    Quote Originally Posted by Star Dragon View Post
    Did the punch chop downward at a 45-degree angle laterally, i.e., from right-top to left-bottom?
    No sir, it was a legitimate punch, although a "Chopping Punch" would seem to be effective as well but wouldn't drive the hips and create the posture for the follow-up. Good call sir.
    "Nothing is more dangerous than the conscientiously ignorant, or the sincerely stupid." - Martin Luther King Jr.

    "Knowledge speaks but wisdom listens." - Ed Parker Sr.

    "It's much easier to quote, than to know." - Ron Chapél


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    Default Re: May 2017 TOM - Fists of Fury

    Quote Originally Posted by Doc View Post
    No sir, it was a legitimate punch, although a "Chopping Punch" would seem to be effective as well but wouldn't drive the hips and create the posture for the follow-up. Good call sir.
    What did Mr. Parker mean by an 'inverted vertical punch'?

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    Default Re: May 2017 TOM - Fists of Fury

    Quote Originally Posted by Star Dragon View Post
    In either technique, I find commiting two arms to blocking that punch a bit over the top, especially in the face of the threat posed by the attacker's other arm.

    When you use the front arm for blocking, keep the back arm (referred to as "live hand" in some systems) ready for independent action, which here could be checking the attacker's right arm simultaneously with the strike performed by the front arm.
    That's the trouble with written decriptions, ya can't feel it. The initial blocks described here are pentrating movements on a 45 degree forward vector, accompanied by stepping in. Contact points are the head of the bicep with the lead hand (I like the shoulder seam, myself), and the mid-forearm for the rear hand. They don't "receive" the punch, they interrupt it. This has the effect of immediately stopping the attacker's forward momentum, as well as mis-aligning the shoulders and hips, and rocking the attacker back on their heels. This helps to mitigate the threat of the opposite hand to the point that, if it is thrown, it's lost a lot of its stank. We certainly don't ignore it, but the mis-alignment of the shoulder-hip structure does makes it difficult to throw effectively.

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    Default Re: May 2017 TOM - Fists of Fury

    Quote Originally Posted by Doc View Post
    I also have trouble with the "uppercut." How are you going to uppercut a vertical target created by the strikes to the head. Contrary to popular belief, "upper cuts" go up, not forward.
    I would agree Sir. "Uppercut" is not a proper description of the strike. Though it seems to have creeped into the description over the years. I've always referred to it as an "underpunch", which is the term used in old-school Hapkido. It not executed vertically, but rather on the upward 45 degree angle.

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    Default Re: May 2017 TOM - Fists of Fury

    Quote Originally Posted by bdparsons View Post
    That's the trouble with written decriptions, ya can't feel it. The initial blocks described here are pentrating movements on a 45 degree forward vector, accompanied by stepping in. Contact points are the head of the bicep with the lead hand (I like the shoulder seam, myself), and the mid-forearm for the rear hand. They don't "receive" the punch, they interrupt it. This has the effect of immediately stopping the attacker's forward momentum, as well as mis-aligning the shoulders and hips, and rocking the attacker back on their heels. This helps to mitigate the threat of the opposite hand to the point that, if it is thrown, it's lost a lot of its stank. We certainly don't ignore it, but the mis-alignment of the shoulder-hip structure does makes it difficult to throw effectively.

    Respects,
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    Triangle Kenpo Institute
    I understood. But interrupting the punch is primarily the action of the front hand; the back hand contributes but little to it. No need for this kind of double block, IMO.

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    Default Re: May 2017 TOM - Fists of Fury

    But I take it that, since you are blocking the punch at the bicep, you need the back hand to cover against possible action by the forearm.

    I do think that so much commitment to one attack leaves you open to another. It can work, but there is little margin for error. But to each their own.

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    Default Re: May 2017 TOM - Fists of Fury

    Quote Originally Posted by Star Dragon View Post
    What did Mr. Parker mean by an 'inverted vertical punch'?
    Although the term "Inverted Vertical Punch" exists, (known in some Chinese circles as a "smothering punch) I made reference to an "Inverted Horizontal Punch."
    "Nothing is more dangerous than the conscientiously ignorant, or the sincerely stupid." - Martin Luther King Jr.

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    Default Re: May 2017 TOM - Fists of Fury

    Quote Originally Posted by Doc View Post
    Although the term "Inverted Vertical Punch" exists, (known in some Chinese circles as a "smothering punch) I made reference to an "Inverted Horizontal Punch."
    Right. My bad.

    So how do you define an 'inverted horizontal punch'?

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    Default Re: May 2017 TOM - Fists of Fury

    Quote Originally Posted by Star Dragon View Post
    But I take it that, since you are blocking the punch at the bicep, you need the back hand to cover against possible action by the forearm.

    I do think that so much commitment to one attack leaves you open to another. It can work, but there is little margin for error. But to each their own.
    You're right, not only can it work, it does work and quite effectively. It's been pressure tested repeatedly against not-so-small attackers with the goal of trying to deconstruct the defense with an additional attack.

    Did you miss the part about what the back hand is doing? Rather than being a passive positional check, it engages the lower arm further disrupting shoulder/hip alignment.

    On a side note, a committed defense does not preclude an awareness of other factors. I've seen too many folks get their butt kicked nine ways from Tuesday because of a lack of committment in their defense.

    To each their own... as long as "your own" is effective.

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    Default Re: May 2017 TOM - Fists of Fury

    If this works for you, great!

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    Default Re: May 2017 TOM - Fists of Fury

    Thanks for your input. After all, this is my first rodeo.
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    Default Re: May 2017 TOM - Fists of Fury

    Quote Originally Posted by bdparsons View Post
    You're right, not only can it work, it does work and quite effectively. It's been pressure tested repeatedly against not-so-small attackers with the goal of trying to deconstruct the defense with an additional attack.

    Did you miss the part about what the back hand is doing? Rather than being a passive positional check, it engages the lower arm further disrupting shoulder/hip alignment.

    On a side note, a committed defense does not preclude an awareness of other factors. I've seen too many folks get their butt kicked nine ways from Tuesday because of a lack of committment in their defense.

    To each their own... as long as "your own" is effective.

    Bill Parsons
    Triangle Kenpo Institute
    Spoken like an Old School Warrior.
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    "Knowledge speaks but wisdom listens." - Ed Parker Sr.

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    Default Re: May 2017 TOM - Fists of Fury

    Quote Originally Posted by Star Dragon View Post
    Right. My bad.

    So how do you define an 'inverted horizontal punch'?
    Back to basics: When a punch is chambered at the hip when you execute, initially the palm is "inverted" until the elbow begins to leave the ribcage. This initial action represents an "Inverted Horizontal Punch" on Mr. Parker's list of basics. If you choose to stop there and allow the arm to rotate on the axis of the shoulder, then you have an "Uppercut Punch." However, if you allow the punch to continue forward naturally, it will begin to rotate or spiral and result in a "Vertical Punch." Allowed to continue forward to the next depth zone will produce the naturally occurring "Horizontal Punch." However it should be noted once the hand has rotated fully to the palm down position, it is no longer a punch.
    "Nothing is more dangerous than the conscientiously ignorant, or the sincerely stupid." - Martin Luther King Jr.

    "Knowledge speaks but wisdom listens." - Ed Parker Sr.

    "It's much easier to quote, than to know." - Ron Chapél


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