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Thread: October 2007 EPAK Technique Of The Month - Encounter With Danger

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    Default October 2007 EPAK Technique Of The Month - Encounter With Danger

    Encounter with Danger (Front- Two-Hand Push)
    1. An attacker at 12 o'clock pushes you with both hands.

    2. Fall onto your back, slapping out on both sides to disperse the energy of the fall. As you fall, execute a left knife-edge kick to your attacker's groin.

    3. Pivot, or roll to your left side to 9 o'clock as you execute a right knife-edge kick to your attacker's jaw.

    4. Continue the roll rising on your left knee, face to 6 o'clock as you switch, propping yourself on your right knee as you execute a left rear kick to your attacker's midsection.

    5. Pull the left foot back into a kneeling front crossover, stand and cross out to 6 o'clock.
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    Default Re: October 2007 EPAK Technique Of The Month - Encounter With Danger

    I think this is a good ground technique....I've seen some black & white footage of SGM Parker doing this somewhere...
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    Default Re: October 2007 EPAK Technique Of The Month - Encounter With Danger

    Quote Originally Posted by Rob Broad View Post
    Encounter with Danger (Front- Two-Hand Push)
    1. An attacker at 12 o'clock pushes you with both hands.

    2. Fall onto your back, slapping out on both sides to disperse the energy of the fall. As you fall, execute a left knife-edge kick to your attacker's groin.
    I believe it would be a little unlikely for one to fall over backwards after being pushed unless the push was very hard - or there was an obstacle in the way that you trip over.

    I'm not sure about the kicking 'as you fall'. Maybe its just the wording.... I think you need to do the break-fall first, then perform the kick with your body supported against the ground rather than as you are falling? And how do you do a knifeedge kick, you'll be doing a front-thrust kick if your facing him?

    The the groin as target for the kick .... would that cause the attacker to double over and fall towards you? The kick is to keep him off you once you are on the ground, maybe a kick to the abdomen would be better?

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    Default Re: October 2007 EPAK Technique Of The Month - Encounter With Danger

    i've actually gotten this technique off during sparring... got my lead left foot swept and it fell right into place.
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    Default Re: October 2007 EPAK Technique Of The Month - Encounter With Danger

    Quote Originally Posted by pete View Post
    i've actually gotten this technique off during sparring... got my lead left foot swept and it fell right into place.
    I too used a variation during sparring. I tried using a defensive side kick, got it jammed and pushed off balance, so I fell into this tech. Unfortunately, I struck his groin instead of his stomach where I was aiming.

    As with the timing, you land, then pop over to your right side to throw the kcik, then quickly shift to your other side to deliver the next kick.
    Last edited by jjpregler; 10-04-2007 at 07:50 PM.

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    Default Re: October 2007 EPAK Technique Of The Month - Encounter With Danger

    Quote Originally Posted by JamesB View Post
    I believe it would be a little unlikely for one to fall over backwards after being pushed unless the push was very hard - or there was an obstacle in the way that you trip over.

    I'm not sure about the kicking 'as you fall'. Maybe its just the wording.... I think you need to do the break-fall first, then perform the kick with your body supported against the ground rather than as you are falling? And how do you do a knifeedge kick, you'll be doing a front-thrust kick if your facing him?

    The the groin as target for the kick .... would that cause the attacker to double over and fall towards you? The kick is to keep him off you once you are on the ground, maybe a kick to the abdomen would be better?
    You beat me to it! I was thinking the same thing when I read the breakdown of this technique. IMHO, I would think that the first concern would be for landing safely and properly on the ground.

    The next part that I'm a little iffy on is the kick, as you said.

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    Default Re: October 2007 EPAK Technique Of The Month - Encounter With Danger

    I also agree that you would probably want to breakfall first, and then you can execute your kick. If the opponent is pushing you hard enough to initiate a fall, the kick will be harder to pull off as you are going down. It's possible, but it's difficult.

    As for the rest, I figured that I would look it up in our school's syllabus and post its version of the breakdown:

    ENCOUNTER WITH DANGER (front two hand push)
    • With feet together, opponent pushes and forces you to the ground onto your back toward 6:00.
    • As your opponent comes forward, deliver a left vertical knife-edge kick to opponent's groin toward 12:00. Immediately follow-up with a right knife-edge kick to opponent's jaw.
    • Plant your right knee to your left as you turn onto your stomach facing 6:00. While on your right knee, push yourself up with your arms as you deliver a left rear kick to your opponent's midsection.
    • Plant left foot down and step up with the right foot towards 6:00
    The first kick is listed as a VERTICAL knife edge kick, meaning that you are still kicking forward like a front snap, but you are using the blade of your foot instead of the ball. Seems kinda weird, but I'm sure there's a reason for it...possibly using a broader weapon that still has some pentration to it. And I'm sure that a front ball kick would work just as well in this case.

    It then says to immediately follow up with a right knife-edge, but that time it did not say vertical, so it's assumed that it's done the usual way (horizontal).
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    Default Re: October 2007 EPAK Technique Of The Month - Encounter With Danger

    Quote Originally Posted by domino3700 View Post
    I also agree that you would probably want to breakfall first, and then you can execute your kick. If the opponent is pushing you hard enough to initiate a fall, the kick will be harder to pull off as you are going down. It's possible, but it's difficult.

    As for the rest, I figured that I would look it up in our school's syllabus and post its version of the breakdown:

    ENCOUNTER WITH DANGER (front two hand push)
    • With feet together, opponent pushes and forces you to the ground onto your back toward 6:00.
    • As your opponent comes forward, deliver a left vertical knife-edge kick to opponent's groin toward 12:00. Immediately follow-up with a right knife-edge kick to opponent's jaw.
    • Plant your right knee to your left as you turn onto your stomach facing 6:00. While on your right knee, push yourself up with your arms as you deliver a left rear kick to your opponent's midsection.
    • Plant left foot down and step up with the right foot towards 6:00
    The first kick is listed as a VERTICAL knife edge kick, meaning that you are still kicking forward like a front snap, but you are using the blade of your foot instead of the ball. Seems kinda weird, but I'm sure there's a reason for it...possibly using a broader weapon that still has some pentration to it. And I'm sure that a front ball kick would work just as well in this case.

    It then says to immediately follow up with a right knife-edge, but that time it did not say vertical, so it's assumed that it's done the usual way (horizontal).
    No, the kick comes up like a side kick, not a front kick. As you land, you quickly roll to the side to execute the kcik. The vertical describes it as coming up from the floor.

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    Default Re: October 2007 EPAK Technique Of The Month - Encounter With Danger

    I hate this technique. It is difficult to do well.

    As I think about the way we do the technique, I think we have an attacker that has some forward momentum after the push. I'm pretty sure, we are getting our left foot into a kick position, a thrusting ball kick position into the attackers mid-section, (not his groin) just to stop his forward momentum. We've fallen to the ground, and the bad guy is falling on top of us.

    I'm pretty sure we do a right roundhouse kick to the attacker's head, after we stop his momentum. But, this kick is a real pain. The torque for the kick comes from flipping from your back, to your front, off the strength of your elbows. It is not a roll, as described in the write up, but a hop/twist combination. There should be daylight between your backside, and the ground - between your shoulderblades and the ground. The right kick requires an explosive action to make that 'roll' work effectively.

    Ugh!

    The other stuff in the technique, is just the other stuff in the technique. I believe it is really all about executing that roundhouse kick from the horizontal position.

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    Default Re: October 2007 EPAK Technique Of The Month - Encounter With Danger

    Quote Originally Posted by jjpregler View Post
    No, the kick comes up like a side kick, not a front kick. As you land, you quickly roll to the side to execute the kcik. The vertical describes it as coming up from the floor.
    I do understand what you are saying, but IMO it seems like this would be doing too much... to roll one way, side kick, then roll the opposite way and side kick. I thought the idea behind this tech was ultimately to get back on your feet quickly, so to lay there and roll side to side seems counterproductive to that.

    If you are flat on your back, and the opponent is coming immediately straight at you (in the ideal phase, anyway), then it would seem best to just kick straight out to stop him, either with the ball or the blade, instead of taking time to get into position on one side. Then the other two kicks are executed as you are getting back to your feet, to keep the attacker at bay while you get up.
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    Default Re: October 2007 EPAK Technique Of The Month - Encounter With Danger

    Quote Originally Posted by domino3700 View Post
    I do understand what you are saying, but IMO it seems like this would be doing too much... to roll one way, side kick, then roll the opposite way and side kick. I thought the idea behind this tech was ultimately to get back on your feet quickly, so to lay there and roll side to side seems counterproductive to that.

    If you are flat on your back, and the opponent is coming immediately straight at you (in the ideal phase, anyway), then it would seem best to just kick straight out to stop him, either with the ball or the blade, instead of taking time to get into position on one side. Then the other two kicks are executed as you are getting back to your feet, to keep the attacker at bay while you get up.
    The rolls aren't as pronounced as you are making them sound. You are just rotating your hips to kick. However, I agree that a straight up kick might be more efficient here.

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    Default Re: October 2007 EPAK Technique Of The Month - Encounter With Danger

    hrm.. it would seem hard to me, to do the kick while falling? maybe land with it out, as maybe a way to keep the person from just leaping on top of you if he's coming in after the push..

    and yes.. the whole falling on your back after a push, it could very well be just a very strong push that catches you off guard before you can step back/off, or just something you trip backwards over. think of it as an environmental technique.
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    Default Re: October 2007 EPAK Technique Of The Month - Encounter With Danger

    Just out of curiousity does anyone address giving your back to your opponent on the 3rd kick? I usually show how it sets you up for a rear naked if the guy has a ground game.
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    Default Re: October 2007 EPAK Technique Of The Month - Encounter With Danger

    Quote Originally Posted by Rob Broad View Post
    Encounter with Danger (Front- Two-Hand Push)
    1. An attacker at 12 o'clock pushes you with both hands.

    2. Fall onto your back, slapping out on both sides to disperse the energy of the fall. As you fall, execute a left knife-edge kick to your attacker's groin.

    3. Pivot, or roll to your left side to 9 o'clock as you execute a right knife-edge kick to your attacker's jaw.

    4. Continue the roll rising on your left knee, face to 6 o'clock as you switch, propping yourself on your right knee as you execute a left rear kick to your attacker's midsection.

    5. Pull the left foot back into a kneeling front crossover, stand and cross out to 6 o'clock.
    I was taught the push is either on you before you know it or this tech can teach you to go with a push and use the attacker's momentum against them.

    When we realize the push is about to happen we cross the right leg slightly behind the left to help break the fall and throw a left front kick using the heal of the foot, basically kicking as we land. The rest is pretty much the same.

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    Default Re: October 2007 EPAK Technique Of The Month - Encounter With Danger

    Quote Originally Posted by Hunter View Post
    Just out of curiousity does anyone address giving your back to your opponent on the 3rd kick? I usually show how it sets you up for a rear naked if the guy has a ground game.
    That's a good point. Do you think the last kick would be enough to keep them off of you until you get up? Do you just show them how the attacker could accomplish the rear naked or show them ways to stop it?

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    Default Re: October 2007 EPAK Technique Of The Month - Encounter With Danger

    after the left kick to the gut, i roll to my left and use my left foot to hook the opponents right ankle. the right knife kick goes to the opponents right knee... which could destroy it, but will in any case send him back and likely down. the final back kick is just in case he's able to get up and try to chase me down once more.
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    Default Re: October 2007 EPAK Technique Of The Month - Encounter With Danger

    That sounds cool I'll have to play with it.

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    Default Re: October 2007 EPAK Technique Of The Month - Encounter With Danger

    Quote Originally Posted by Hunter View Post
    Just out of curiousity does anyone address giving your back to your opponent on the 3rd kick? I usually show how it sets you up for a rear naked if the guy has a ground game.
    I think you need to use judgment here. If the previous kicks connect, you should ahve the time to turn, kick and cover out, if they miss you do not. It's like any other what if in kenpo.

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    Default Re: October 2007 EPAK Technique Of The Month - Encounter With Danger

    An attacker who is your size or bigger and who really wants to get on you will simply fall on you in the middle of this technique, smothering your kicks, because you're not really doing anything here to stop the momentum. The groin kick will change his posture but it's not going to stop his mass and inertia. Without stopping him, the second kick will be smothered, the third never has a chance.

    This might work well in sparring or partner practice where attacks are less committed and are usually focuses on stand up encounters, but it doesn't seem to me to like it would be very effective against committed agression, especially if he is bigger than you and he is committed to getting you on the ground.

    That's just my simple opinion, feel free to dismiss it
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    Default Re: October 2007 EPAK Technique Of The Month - Encounter With Danger

    Quote Originally Posted by Hunter View Post
    Just out of curiousity does anyone address giving your back to your opponent on the 3rd kick? I usually show how it sets you up for a rear naked if the guy has a ground game.
    Excellent point.

    Quote Originally Posted by DavidCC View Post
    An attacker who is your size or bigger and who really wants to get on you will simply fall on you in the middle of this technique, smothering your kicks, because you're not really doing anything here to stop the momentum. The groin kick will change his posture but it's not going to stop his mass and inertia. Without stopping him, the second kick will be smothered, the third never has a chance.

    This might work well in sparring or partner practice where attacks are less committed and are usually focuses on stand up encounters, but it doesn't seem to me to like it would be very effective against committed agression, especially if he is bigger than you and he is committed to getting you on the ground.

    That's just my simple opinion, feel free to dismiss it
    I believe this technique is geared towares someong shoving you and you happen to fall. I don't think the forward momentum lends itself to a takedown..in this scenario. Of course, if they do fall with you or intend on taking it to the ground then this tech is right out the window!

    One thing that is mentioned is that you "slap out" when hitting the ground. The reason for this is of course to disperse the force of the fall across a greater area reducing the damage done from the fall. One thing that has not been brought up that I think is equally important is for you to tuck your legs. This not only puts them in a "chambered position" so they can be used to kick, but helps put you in a position to have some leverage if the attacker does go to the ground with you.

    On a side note concerning kicking from the ground: I like the IKCA take on this where you don't actually kick to the groin but instead hook the back of the attackers leg with your left foot and then kick the front of the knee with the right....pretty nasty.
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