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Thread: November 2005 Technique - Delayed Sword

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    Default November 2005 Technique - Delayed Sword

    Walk through Originally posted by Rob Broad on MartialTalk.com
    (front - right hand lapel grab)

    1)Standing naturally, step back with your left foot toward 6:00
    into a right neutral bow stance facing 12:00, while simultaneously
    executing a right inward block to the right inner wrist of your
    opponent's right hand lapel grab. At the same time position your
    left hand at solar-plexus level as a precautionary check against
    further action. (Your block should expose the width of his body.)

    2)Immediatly slide your right foot back into a 45 degree cat
    stance.

    3)Without hesitation deliver a right front ball snap kick to your
    opponent's groin. (Your opponent's reaction should cause him to
    bend forward at the waist.)

    4)Plant your right foot forward into a right neutral bow (facing
    12:00), to check your opponent's right knee, as you deliver a
    right outward hand sword to the right side of your opponent's
    neck. Remember to maintain the position of your left hand as a
    precautionary check. Immediatly slide your right hand (after the
    strike) to the right wrist of your opponent as a precautionary
    check. (Your opponent's response should cause him to fall to the
    ground.)



    Examples are found at:
    http://www.sunsetwestproductions.com/xtreme.htm
    http://aspoonful.com/assets/multimedia/DelSwd-real.MPG
    http://www.kenpostudio.com/html/tech...yed_sword.html

    More are appreciated.
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    Default Re: November 2005 Technique - Delayed Sword

    I am confused?!?!? I thought it was thundering hammers!?!?! Help me out here Bob!
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    Default Re: November 2005 Technique - Delayed Sword

    He picked one to get the ball rolling

    Personally, I like to use my left hand to pin the opponents hand. I can then use frictional pull to go right into the hand chop.

    YMMV
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    Exclamation Re: November 2005 Technique - Delayed Sword

    If I may,

    You need to pin the opponent's right hand as he grabs.

    The pin and step back controls the opponentís height, width, and depth.
    If you donít pin the hand that grabs, if the opponent lets go, it will cancel most of your action.


    Jamie Seabrook
    www.seabrook.gotkenpo.com

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    Default Re: November 2005 Technique - Delayed Sword

    As mentioned, if in response to a right-hand lapel grab, you, "position your
    left hand at solar-plexus level as a precautionary check against
    further action," you are very likely to get slapped in the mouth. This is to be avoided. Additionally, this will mean that you will not have your hand in anything like the correct position to cope with a push or a punch, the further developments of that grab.

    Pinning with the left hand also helps teach the student to check an opponent 's height and depth as they step back. It ties Delayed Sword to basics (most obviously a grab-punch, which is also one hand back to chamber and one hand forward to strike); to Short 1 (left foot steps back as left hand pulls back; right hand blocks); to the general pattern of Yellow Belt techniques (weak side back, strong side forward; right hand blocks, then strikes).

    Again, the problem with fiddling around with the ideal stage of these techniques is that, a) often, the fiddling creates an opening for an opponent; b) the relationship to other aspects of the system at that level is obscured; c) the different aspects of the system are less likely to reinforce each other.

    But the basic problem is this: why teach somebody to leave an unchecked hand waving around near their face, and to leave their own hand idle, sitting there BELOW the opponent's hand?

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    Default Re: November 2005 Technique - Delayed Sword

    Delayed Sword is for a punch or push - if the attacker actually grabs hold of you, why pin the hand to continue with Delayed Sword - just go straight into Lone Kimono. The system is designed to cover all the "What If's".

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    Default Re: November 2005 Technique - Delayed Sword

    Sorry, but DS is the first of the yellow belt techniques because, according to the Web of Knowledge, it is a response to the least dangerous of attacks--a grab. The push and the punch, while certainly implied, are more-developed attacks, and more dangerous ones.

    Responding to a grab, furthermore, starts things out by teaching beginners to work on controlling opponents and checking zones, without necessarily pushing a lot of confusing theory at them.

    Additionally, Lone Kimono is going to be rather difficult for an absolute beginner to employ against a right handed grab, inasmuch as the ideal technique (the level at which techniques must be learned) is a response to a left-handed grab.

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    Default Re: November 2005 Technique - Delayed Sword

    Your right - Web of Knowledge A)single arm grab - DS
    b) push - aggressive twins etc..
    Though many practice the technique with pushes and punches - they probably forget it is intended for a basic grab. Actually it probably never gets that far, as the opponent starts to grab - you go immediately into the technique. I could see where if they had a good hold on you and you try to simply block without pinning - you might be creating problems for yourself.
    Forget the Lone Kimono thing - wrong hand - DUH!
    Triggered Salute would be more appropriate.

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    Default Re: November 2005 Technique - Delayed Sword

    I like Delayed Sword for its simplicity and effectiveness in its simplicity. How many people are going to be able to think beyond a couple of basic moves if they were attacked?
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    Default Re: November 2005 Technique - Delayed Sword

    3 types of people
    - the guy who wouldn't know a wristlock from a wrist watch
    - the guy who studys some martial art, or has a 'fighter' background
    - the guy who studied your art.

    Simple works on the first, the second is more complex, the third is chess.
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    Default Re: November 2005 Technique - Delayed Sword

    Quote Originally Posted by Miyu
    I like Delayed Sword for its simplicity and effectiveness in its simplicity. How many people are going to be able to think beyond a couple of basic moves if they were attacked?
    Good point.
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    Default Re: November 2005 Technique - Delayed Sword

    Quote Originally Posted by Miyu
    I like Delayed Sword for its simplicity and effectiveness in its simplicity. How many people are going to be able to think beyond a couple of basic moves if they were attacked?
    Geat point. I like this technique because it is effective. While idealy it is for a right handed lapel grab, it will work with equal effectiveness against a right handed push or pright punch.
    Quality outweighs quantity every time.

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    Default Re: November 2005 Technique - Delayed Sword

    I think that limiting the student to only doing Delayed Sword against a grab defeats the original purpose of the technique which is to learn to defend yourself with the lead hand, where the problem lies, is that once the grab becomes a strike your concerns change and so should your targets. You had also better have a good environmental reason for choosing to go on the inside of a straight right punch. I prefer to work this tech while sparring right to right.
    Sean

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    Default Re: November 2005 Technique - Delayed Sword

    Quote Originally Posted by rmcr
    Sorry, but DS is the first of the yellow belt techniques because, according to the Web of Knowledge, it is a response to the least dangerous of attacks--a grab.The push and the punch, while certainly implied, are more-developed attacks, and more dangerous ones.

    Responding to a grab, furthermore, starts things out by teaching beginners to work on controlling opponents and checking zones, without necessarily pushing a lot of confusing theory at them.

    Additionally, Lone Kimono is going to be rather difficult for an absolute beginner to employ against a right handed grab, inasmuch as the ideal technique (the level at which techniques must be learned) is a response to a left-handed grab.
    I wouldn't look at an applied grab as an actual attack, but more of an attack in progress. It's kinda like a fighter plane achieving "lock-on" before firing it's missiles. The bad guy usually grabs his target in order to bully him/her, and to establish the location of his target before striking. Hell, he might be able to see you, but if he sees and feels where his target is he has a greater chance of hitting it. (Using two senses is better than having no sense at all.)

    #1. Important Kenpo Lesson = Just because your opponent doesn't define his action as tracking, doesn't mean that he doesn't know how to do it.

    #2. Important Kenpo Lesson = Just because your opponent isn't pulling or pushing you while maintaining a grab doesn't mean that a grab isn't dangerous.

    #3. Important Kenpo Lesson = While a grab, by itself, isn't all that dangerous... You're in more danger of getting hurt while being grabbed than when you're not. This makes defending yourself against a grab a priority in self-defense (Which to me is the real reason why Delayed Sword is the first technique in the system).

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    Default Re: November 2005 Technique - Delayed Sword

    If someone is grabbing you and maintaining a steady hold on you, he is likely to be setting himself to punch you with the other hand.

    The inward strike to the bicep, which in technique will turn into the hand chop to the neck, can turn into a check and possible outward block, should you notice the punch coming in.

    IMO, only
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    Default Re: November 2005 Technique - Delayed Sword

    Quote Originally Posted by Miyu
    If someone is grabbing you and maintaining a steady hold on you, he is likely to be setting himself to punch you with the other hand.

    The inward strike to the bicep, which in technique will turn into the hand chop to the neck, can turn into a check and possible outward block, should you notice the punch coming in.

    IMO, only
    My point is simple...

    Your priority is to break your opponent's "lock-on". (Get out of the grab! You're in a lot more danger by letting him maintain the grab than if you don't.)

    At the same time, you want to change your position (step back into a neutral bow... create space... narrow his potential targets, etc...) while, at the same time, you change his position (utilizing zone cancellation, setting-up your own targets on his body, retaliating, etc...)

    If your first move is effecitve (in an ideal situation it always is), you won't need to block a punch instead of strike his neck. He will be off balance, in pain, and his zones will be cancelled. The trick is maximaizing the effect of your response while creating and maintaining a combat environment that is ideal for you and not your opponent.

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    Default Re: November 2005 Technique - Delayed Sword

    Wasn't disagreeing with you...merely throwing out an additional two-cents
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    Default Re: November 2005 Technique - Delayed Sword

    Quote Originally Posted by Miyu
    Wasn't disagreeing with you...merely throwing out an additional two-cents
    I wasn't disagreeing with you either. Besides... if the first part of your technique isn't effective (because you failed to cancel your oppponent's width with the kick) then stop the punch with an extended outward block. Why not? :-)

    I was in disagreement with Robert's statement about why Delayed Sword is at the top of the list and the first technique taught in the system. My understanding is that grabs are the most common initialization of an assault and that grabbing is the most common way of making sure your target is where you want it in a combat situation.

    The web of knowledge was designed with "the priorities of self-defense" in mind. Delayed Sword is at the top of the list because it is simple (begginer's can easily remember the sequence), it deals with one of (if not the most) common attacks encountered in a self-defense situation, and because grabs are very dangerous when your opponent knows what he is doing. It has very little to do with a grab being least the dangerous of attacks.

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    Default Re: November 2005 Technique - Delayed Sword

    I agree that this technique is great for beginners since it is so easy to remember. I also like the fact it is first because the grab is such a common first action in an altercation when it gets physical.
    Quality outweighs quantity every time.

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    Default Re: November 2005 Technique - Delayed Sword

    I'm afraid that's incorrect, gentlemen.

    Please look at either, "The Encyclopedia of Kenpo," pages 136-138, or, "Inf. Insights," Vol. 5, 68-70: both entries are the same.

    Not only are grabs specifically described as easier and less dangerous than pushes, pushes easier and less dangerous than punches, punches e&ld than kicks, kicks easier and ld than holds and hugs, holds and hugs less than chokes and locks, chokes and locks less than weapon attacks, with the phrases, "more dangerous," or, "more difficult," repeatedly used to emphasize the differences from level of attack to level of attack,but there is specifically this:

    "These topics...{i.e. grabs&tackles, pushes, punches, etc.} were arranged categorically according to the degree of difficulty in handling an attack."

    Nothing, that I am aware of, is said about the likelihood of particular attacks: could you show me where that comes from, exactly? Moreover, my experience has been that the single commonest start of an assault, on the part of men, is baboon display: first they bluster and jump up and down, then they come for you.

    I'd note, too, that if you try teaching most beginners Grasp of Death or Checking the Storm first, you will quickly find out why the static grab of delayed Swords is taught first. There's an emotional component to it; the lower level of threat, the simpler response, allows beginners to start building in the basis of all the yellow belt techniques (left foot back, right hand employed) with a clearer head.

    An observation: when teaching kenpo, it is important to keep what your student knows and needs to know separate from what you know and need to know. Mr. Lear's comments on sophisticated attacks are quite correct: they do NOT apply to the basic placement of attacks/techniques on the Web, nor to beginners.

    Sorry, no.

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