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Thread: August 2007 - EPAK Technique Of The Month - Crushing Hammer

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    Default August 2007 - EPAK Technique Of The Month - Crushing Hammer

    Crushing Hammer (Rear- Bear Hug; Arms Pinned)
    1. An attacker at 6 o'clock grabs you in a bear hug and pins your arms in the process.

    2. As your left hand pins your attacker's left hand, your right snaps in towards your right shoulder.

    3. Step your left foot to 9 o'clock into a horse stance as you take advantage of marriage of gravity and execute a right back hammerfist to your attacker's groin.

    4. Pull your right foot to your left into a transitional cat stance. As you do so, bring your right hand up as a waiter's hand / finger whip.

    5. Step to 4:30 with your right foot into a right reverse bow as you simultaneously execute a right underhand claw to your attacker's groin.

    6. Unwind, utilizing torque, as you pivot into a right forward bow facing 4:30. As you pivot, claw up with your right hand, possibly catching them in the chin with a right obscure elbow. Simultaneous with this action, execute a left palm strike to your attacker's right floating ribs.

    7. Cross out towards 10:30.
    Quality outweighs quantity every time.

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    Default Re: August 2007 - EPAK Technique Of The Month - Crushing Hammer

    Why in God's name do you bring your right hand to your right shoulder?
    Sean

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    Default Re: August 2007 - EPAK Technique Of The Month - Crushing Hammer

    Quote Originally Posted by KenpoChanger View Post
    Why in God's name do you bring your right hand to your right shoulder?
    Sean
    Agree. Mr. Panting used to hold a staff acroos our front when we did this. If your right pushed out on that staff before you hammerfisted him, you were pretty likely to get the thing bent around some part of your anatomy. It was a quick strike that connected as you steped into your base.

    The only difference in the opening moves in Crushing Hammer and Captured Twigs is that, in CT he drives you more forward and to the side, in CH he drives you more to the side. So your step is different to regain a base, which changes the angular relationship to your attacker for phase two.

    Dan C
    There are things that are worth knowing for their own sake, worth finding for the pure joy of discovery.

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    Default Re: August 2007 - EPAK Technique Of The Month - Crushing Hammer

    Quote Originally Posted by thedan View Post
    Agree. Mr. Panting used to hold a staff acroos our front when we did this. If your right pushed out on that staff before you hammerfisted him, you were pretty likely to get the thing bent around some part of your anatomy. It was a quick strike that connected as you steped into your base.

    The only difference in the opening moves in Crushing Hammer and Captured Twigs is that, in CT he drives you more forward and to the side, in CH he drives you more to the side. So your step is different to regain a base, which changes the angular relationship to your attacker for phase two.

    Dan C
    Not to mention you have added two beats where there should only be one. This is a speed versus power debate.
    Sean

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    Default Re: August 2007 - EPAK Technique Of The Month - Crushing Hammer

    Quote Originally Posted by KenpoChanger View Post
    Not to mention you have added two beats where there should only be one. This is a speed versus power debate.
    Sean
    Well, I'd say that, considering you don't need much power to be effective with this strike- in fact, if you just get him to move his pelvis back to avoid your strike, it's done its' job without connecting- there's not much to debate.

    But, since Dr. L is right and I like a good debate, I'd tell them that if the attack is applied for real they aren't going to have time for a chamber. They're probably already drove into something, up-ended, or gettin' the smack from his friend.

    Again, I agree. One beat to regain your base and alter his height and depth, and you still have not completely survived the attack. Speed and structure are everything right now, and chambering is bad for both.Structurally, it starts you off floating at a time when you desperately need to be settling into a base.

    My view of the world, limmited as it may be.

    Dan C
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    Default Re: August 2007 - EPAK Technique Of The Month - Crushing Hammer

    Quote Originally Posted by KenpoChanger View Post
    Why in God's name do you bring your right hand to your right shoulder?
    Sean

    As I have stated almost every month when something in a technique is questioned. These are the versions we were sent, If you have a better version post.

    After reading the technique, it does not say bring your hand to your shoulder, it says bring your hand towards the shoulder. With out a little distance your right handed groin strike will not be that effective.
    Quality outweighs quantity every time.

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    Default Re: August 2007 - EPAK Technique Of The Month - Crushing Hammer

    I agree with Mr. Broad about posting your own version if don't like what is being posted.

    I have many versions of the same technique that I will teach and allow the student to have options. I also encourage them to ask questions and come up with their own versions.

    Sometimes instructors/students get so caught up in doing a technique by the book. Streetfights don't go by the book, you have to adapt and overcome out there. Learning a technique is only the beginning.

    But hey, what do I know, I don't ever remember using an entire technique on the street. Usually by the 2nd or 3rd strike it was over.

    Remember to seperate the Art from combat grasshopper. You'll live long enough to hop more grass.
    Humility is not thinking less of yourself. It's thinking of yourself, less.

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    Default Re: August 2007 - EPAK Technique Of The Month - Crushing Hammer

    Quote Originally Posted by Rob Broad View Post
    As I have stated almost every month when something in a technique is questioned. These are the versions we were sent, If you have a better version post.

    After reading the technique, it does not say bring your hand to your shoulder, it says bring your hand towards the shoulder. With out a little distance your right handed groin strike will not be that effective.
    Yeah, but then my teacher hits me with a stick LOL Secondly, marriage of gravity does play a roll in adding power. You don't need a sledge hammer for a minor move.
    Sean

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    Default Re: August 2007 - EPAK Technique Of The Month - Crushing Hammer

    Quote Originally Posted by Rob Broad View Post
    As I have stated almost every month when something in a technique is questioned. These are the versions we were sent, If you have a better version post.

    After reading the technique, it does not say bring your hand to your shoulder, it says bring your hand towards the shoulder. With out a little distance your right handed groin strike will not be that effective.
    Oh, qitcher whinen'. So, here's my version (and, remember, you asked ...):

    Crushing Hammer (Rear- Bear Hug; Arms Pinned)
    1. An attacker at 6 o'clock grabs you in a bear hug and pins your arms in the process.

    2. As your left hand pins your attacker's left hand, your right snaps in towards your right shoulder.

    3. Step your left foot to 9 o'clock into a horse stance as you take advantage of marriage of gravity and execute a right back hammerfist to your attacker's groin.


    1&2&3 He slams into aplying a bear hug from behind, pinning both arms and driving you to your left. Step out left into a horse stance in such a way as to reestablish a stable base, as you simultaneously left pin his hands and right hammerfist his groin. Hammerfist goes straight from point of origin and should land as you settle into your base.


    4. Pull your right foot to your left into a transitional cat stance. As you do so, bring your right hand up as a waiter's hand / finger whip.

    4 That's how I was taught. But, to tell the truth, I need to work this with a partner as I may change it. I don't like the cat that close and ballanced on one leg, even momentarily, while engaged and with his weight on me. Any suggestions?

    5. Step to 4:30 with your right foot into a right reverse bow as you simultaneously execute a right underhand claw to your attacker's groin.

    6. Unwind, utilizing torque, as you pivot into a right forward bow facing 4:30. As you pivot, claw up with your right hand, possibly catching them in the chin with a right obscure elbow. Simultaneous with this action, execute a left palm strike to your attacker's right floating ribs.

    5&6 I was taught this as an elbow strikewhich circled over and down to anchor and the reverse heel palm delivered as the elbow anchored and your stance change completes. You can play with the timeing, angle of incidence and targeting of the heel palm to do some interesting things to your opponent.

    7. Cross out towards 10:30.

    Dna C
    There are things that are worth knowing for their own sake, worth finding for the pure joy of discovery.

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    Default Re: August 2007 - EPAK Technique Of The Month - Crushing Hammer

    Quote Originally Posted by thedan View Post
    Oh, qitcher whinen'. So, here's my version (and, remember, you asked ...):

    Crushing Hammer (Rear- Bear Hug; Arms Pinned)
    1. An attacker at 6 o'clock grabs you in a bear hug and pins your arms in the process.

    2. As your left hand pins your attacker's left hand, your right snaps in towards your right shoulder.

    3. Step your left foot to 9 o'clock into a horse stance as you take advantage of marriage of gravity and execute a right back hammerfist to your attacker's groin.


    1&2&3 He slams into aplying a bear hug from behind, pinning both arms and driving you to your left. Step out left into a horse stance in such a way as to reestablish a stable base, as you simultaneously left pin his hands and right hammerfist his groin. Hammerfist goes straight from point of origin and should land as you settle into your base.


    4. Pull your right foot to your left into a transitional cat stance. As you do so, bring your right hand up as a waiter's hand / finger whip.

    4 That's how I was taught. But, to tell the truth, I need to work this with a partner as I may change it. I don't like the cat that close and ballanced on one leg, even momentarily, while engaged and with his weight on me. Any suggestions?

    5. Step to 4:30 with your right foot into a right reverse bow as you simultaneously execute a right underhand claw to your attacker's groin.

    6. Unwind, utilizing torque, as you pivot into a right forward bow facing 4:30. As you pivot, claw up with your right hand, possibly catching them in the chin with a right obscure elbow. Simultaneous with this action, execute a left palm strike to your attacker's right floating ribs.

    5&6 I was taught this as an elbow strikewhich circled over and down to anchor and the reverse heel palm delivered as the elbow anchored and your stance change completes. You can play with the timeing, angle of incidence and targeting of the heel palm to do some interesting things to your opponent.

    7. Cross out towards 10:30.

    Dna C
    Um... We need to talk about cat-ing around. You do it because your ooponent is still part of your base.
    Sean

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    Default Re: August 2007 - EPAK Technique Of The Month - Crushing Hammer

    Quote Originally Posted by KenpoChanger View Post
    Um... We need to talk about cat-ing around. You do it because your ooponent is still part of your base.
    Sean
    True, sir, and that's the part I don't like- depending on someone who may still want to move me for part of my base. One reason I need to try this with a bod. I need to get a feel for what he could do, intentionally or unintentionally, when I move through that point of ballance. What can I do to mitigate the problem? I can speculate, but that only gets me so far.

    One thing I like (I think I've told the story of being slammed by a Judoka so hard I was driven past the point that I could get the groin- also the angles were off) that I've used before is to heel palm strike the anterior crease of the hip joint. But, will it work for all/most angles? Don't know (yet).

    Dan C
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    Default Re: August 2007 - EPAK Technique Of The Month - Crushing Hammer

    Quote Originally Posted by thedan View Post
    True, sir, and that's the part I don't like- depending on someone who may still want to move me for part of my base. One reason I need to try this with a bod. I need to get a feel for what he could do, intentionally or unintentionally, when I move through that point of ballance. What can I do to mitigate the problem? I can speculate, but that only gets me so far.

    One thing I like (I think I've told the story of being slammed by a Judoka so hard I was driven past the point that I could get the groin- also the angles were off) that I've used before is to heel palm strike the anterior crease of the hip joint. But, will it work for all/most angles? Don't know (yet).

    Dan C
    There are weak and strong attacks...

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    Default Re: August 2007 - EPAK Technique Of The Month - Crushing Hammer

    Quote Originally Posted by FGarza View Post
    Sometimes instructors/students get so caught up in doing a technique by the book. Streetfights don't go by the book, you have to adapt and overcome out there. Learning a technique is only the beginning.

    But hey, what do I know, I don't ever remember using an entire technique on the street. Usually by the 2nd or 3rd strike it was over.

    Remember to seperate the Art from combat grasshopper. You'll live long enough to hop more grass.
    Good reminder! Thanks!
    "It is sobering to reflect that one of the best ways to get yourself a reputation as a dangerous citizen these days is to go about repeating the very phrases which our founding fathers used in the struggle for independence." Charles A. Beard

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    Default Re: August 2007 - EPAK Technique Of The Month - Crushing Hammer

    I've seen the rear bear hug attack done with significant forward pressure followed by an attmepted lift. In that case, bringing both hands up toward the shoulder (fist closed, thumbs towards you) traps the attacker's arms. bending over, stepping forward (a painfully simple over-simplification) pulls that attacker off balance.

    Now it will be nearly impossible (without _significant_ size advantage) for them to lift you. Proceed with hammerfist from the now-solid base...
    -David C
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    Default Re: August 2007 - EPAK Technique Of The Month - Crushing Hammer

    I might be envisioning that wrong. But if you break your posture like that your gonna be in trouble. You may have stopped the lift, but now your not only supporting his weight, he's holding on tighter for balance and position, plus you've pinned his arms in just the position he wanted in the first place, and you've pinned your arms by default. HE is still in a position of strength. Patients will outweigh your efforts, you will eventually get thrown or taken down.

    In crushing hammer, the pin and the step make the room for the strikes, and drag him off balance. the groin strikes not only check him mentally and physically, but make room to cat around so you that you can affect his balance at the hips. now YOU are in a position of strength.

    if you pin his arms and bend over forward, all I see is legs wrapping around you. this leads to a couple of bad situations for you if the attacker is experienced in such things. If it was me, i'd dig my hooks in,use my weight to to create a sideways type fall, and roll into rear naked choke postion. it happens fast, and you've ensured that im in proper position for it.

    One thing I do when working attacks like that is try simulate the momentum with the grab. If your bear hugged with force from the rear, there is gonna be a small push forward. Crushing hammer is done stepping to the left. So I simulate the push/grab momentum from behind with a small step forward with the right foot, then continue with the left step out/pin/strike. What this does for me is help me get my hips in proper position, and create a bracing angle opposing his forward momentum. Scraping hoof teaches to get your hips away as well as throw your head back. the reason is in a full nelson, he wants to push forward and down to affect you further. Getting the hips out presents that bracing angle so he can not do that easily if at all. The other thing is, Ever tried to pick up a 2x4 thats ten feet long by one end instead of grabbing it at the middle? Same affect. he's grabbed high enough that you can create a similar angle and can avoid being thrown, as long as you act with follow up. he can always re-position. And im not saying over exagerate the hip distance. Be real about it. If you are aware of the effect of such a thing, a little bit goes a long way, and you should have all the room you need to work.

    just an application that works for me, try it out, see what you think.

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    Default Re: August 2007 - EPAK Technique Of The Month - Crushing Hammer

    Quote Originally Posted by Albert Ichelson View Post
    I might be envisioning that wrong. But if you break your posture like that your gonna be in trouble.
    I'd say you're envisioning this incorrectly as you guessed you might. The defender's posture (not upright)being described is what's needed to survive the assault. It is the attacker's posture that will be 'broken'.

    Quote Originally Posted by Albert Ichelson View Post
    You may have stopped the lift, but now your not only supporting his weight, he's holding on tighter for balance and position, plus you've pinned his arms in just the position he wanted in the first place, and you've pinned your arms by default.
    stopped the lift yes, but before that the forwards assault was also nullified. The defender is not really bringing the attacker's weight onto his own back, and the 'bend forward' as it was described pushes the attacker's hips out of alignment making it impossible to attempt the lift without first 'resetting' to get a different hold. Pinning and lifting the attacker's arms adds to the effect. It is not a passive check. The idea with this technique is to survive the assault first, then start on the response you are familiar with second.

    Quote Originally Posted by Albert Ichelson View Post
    HE is still in a position of strength. Patients will outweigh your efforts, you will eventually get thrown or taken down.
    The attacker will not be in a position of strength. He will firstly try to lift you from the ground. He will be unable to because of the posture he's been forced into - his upper and lower platforms are not structured in the way he needs them to be. The attacker will 'heave' and then relax (release), to get a better hold and realign himself for a second lift/throw. When this happens the step-out occurs and the 'technique' can begin.

    Quote Originally Posted by Albert Ichelson View Post
    In crushing hammer, the pin and the step make the room for the strikes, and drag him off balance. the groin strikes not only check him mentally and physically, but make room to cat around so you that you can affect his balance at the hips. now YOU are in a position of strength.
    fine. but you've got to get there first.

    Quote Originally Posted by Albert Ichelson View Post
    One thing I do when working attacks like that is try simulate the momentum with the grab. If your bear hugged with force from the rear, there is gonna be a small push forward.

    Crushing hammer is done stepping to the left. So I simulate the push/grab momentum from behind with a small step forward with the right foot, then continue with the left step out/pin/strike.
    there'll be more than a small push forward - you'll find with an aggressive assault that it won't be possible to step sideways. Your legs will go into autopilot as you stagger forwards with the force of the attack.

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    Default Re: August 2007 - EPAK Technique Of The Month - Crushing Hammer

    well, what ever works for you. It's not wrong if works, just some things I wouldn't do from other aspects of my training. Your concentrated on the guy throwing you from this position. what if it's not his intent? You've only helped him.

    what I posted is what works for me, and is how I see it and have worked it with this technique, try it, see what you think is how I ended the post. You may not like my methods either. whatever. From my point of view what you describe is dangerous.

    the attack is not always gonna be an aggressive assault. So I guess I should have elaborated a little more. it can be as subtle as a small push forward depending on the attack. And I have found I really never go farther than three or four steps and I have stopped the action even if aggressive. So, small push forward, big push forward, I still end up in the same spot to continue. what I meant to say was there would be at least a small push forward. Recognizing it in practice was the point.

    you have an uncanny ability to copy and paste.

    thanks for the conversation.

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    Default Re: August 2007 - EPAK Technique Of The Month - Crushing Hammer

    Quote Originally Posted by Albert Ichelson View Post
    well, what ever works for you. It's not wrong if works, just some things I wouldn't do from other aspects of my training. Your concentrated on the guy throwing you from this position. what if it's not his intent? You've only helped him.

    what I posted is what works for me, and is how I see it and have worked it with this technique, try it, see what you think is how I ended the post. You may not like my methods either. whatever. From my point of view what you describe is dangerous.

    the attack is not always gonna be an aggressive assault. So I guess I should have elaborated a little more. it can be as subtle as a small push forward depending on the attack. And I have found I really never go farther than three or four steps and I have stopped the action even if aggressive. So, small push forward, big push forward, I still end up in the same spot to continue. what I meant to say was there would be at least a small push forward. Recognizing it in practice was the point.

    you have an uncanny ability to copy and paste.

    thanks for the conversation.
    Albi,

    There is more than one way to skin a cat. What you have been shown and taught to this point is the book version of the technique within our cirriculum. I must ask you to remember that your view is just as valuble as others, and that we all have reasons why we do certian techs,certian ways at certian levels. Just because we teach something one way doesnt mean that it is complete at the time we teach it. You are a fine young man and well on your way to being a great martial artist,and teacher someday.

    However at this time you also only have part of the story. The people on this site are here to help you,me,and everyone. I ask you to remember this, take what others offer,discuss it,try it, disect it but most of all respect their views, and the person presenting them.

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    Default Re: August 2007 - EPAK Technique Of The Month - Crushing Hammer

    I mean no dissrespect, and only offered my point of view from an experience aspect, and to discuss. I don't believe I was beligerent toward anyones views. Just discussed what was written.

    I believe I took a pretty nuetral stance and only offered opinion.
    If it works for you, great, if it works it's not wrong, not the method I would choose, the info I offered is what works for me.

    I thought I was within bounds of discussion but maybe I was wrong.

    like leaves blow in the wind...

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    Default Re: August 2007 - EPAK Technique Of The Month - Crushing Hammer

    Quote Originally Posted by Albert Ichelson View Post
    I mean no dissrespect, and only offered my point of view from an experience aspect, and to discuss. I don't believe I was beligerent toward anyones views. Just discussed what was written.

    I believe I took a pretty nuetral stance and only offered opinion.
    If it works for you, great, if it works it's not wrong, not the method I would choose, the info I offered is what works for me.

    I thought I was within bounds of discussion but maybe I was wrong.

    like leaves blow in the wind...

    Ok Albi,
    Brad Marshall SP
    KKFI

    trgodbm@yahoo.com

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