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Thread: May 2007 - Form of the Month - Short Form 2

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    Default May 2007 - Form of the Month - Short Form 2

    OPENING:
    1. Attention Stance
    2. Bow.
    3. Signify.
    4. Step your left foot to a meditative horse stance.

    1. Start from a horse stance facing 12 o'clock.

    2. Step your right foot forward towards 12 o'clock into a right neutral bow while executing a right inward block with your left hand checking low. Execute a right outward hand sword. (Sink into a wide kneel utilizing marriage of gravity.)

    3. Step your left foot forward towards 12 o'clock into a left neutral bow while executing a left inward block with your right hand checking low. Execute a left outward hand sword. (Sink into a wide kneel.)

    4. Slide your left foot into a left cat stance while covering your right fist (on hip, palm up) with a left vertical fist. Step out into a left neutral bow facing 9 o'clock while simultaneously executing a left outward block and a right reverse punch.

    5. Slide your right foot into a right cat stance facing 12 o'clock while covering your left hand (on hip, palm up) with a right vertical fist. Step out into a right neutral bow facing 3 o'clock while simultaneously executing a right outward block and a left reverse punch.

    6. Slide your left foot into a left cat stance facing 12 o'clock. Have your hands at your right hip, left over the right. Step toward 5 o'clock with your left foot, pivoting into a left wide kneel facing 6 o'clock as you simultaneously execute a left upward block and a right middle knuckle with a vertical downward snap.

    7. V-step your right foot to 12 o'clock into a right wide kneel while simultaneously executing a right upward block and a left verticle raking middle knuckle with a vertical downward snap.

    8. Slide your left foot back into a left cat stance facing 12 o'clock and have your hands at your right hip, right hand over left. Step your left foot to 4:30 into a left neutral bow while executing a left downward block.

    9. Step through to 4:30 into a right neutral bow while executing a right palm heel strike while your left hand checks your mid-section.

    10. V-step your right foot to 7:30 into a right neutral bow while executing a right downward block.

    11. Step to 7:30, into a left neutral bow while executing a left palm heel strike while your right hand checks your mid-section.

    12. Slide your right foot back into a cat stance and turn clockwise to 1:30 while executing a left inward block with the right hand cocking palm up at the waist.

    13. Step to 1:30 into a right neutral bow while executing a right extended outward block with the left hand cocked palm up in a half-fist at your rib cage.

    14. Shift into a right forward bow while executing a left half-fist at throat level.

    15. Slide your left foot forward into a cat stance and turn counterclockwise to 10:30 while executing a right inward block with the left hand cocking itself palm up at your waist.

    16. Step to 10:3 into a left neutral bow while executing a left extended outward block with your right hand cocked palm up in a half-fist at your rib cage.

    17. Shift into a left forward bow while executing a right half-fist at throat level.

    18. Shift your foot so you are in a meditative horse stance facing 12 o'clock.
    "To hear is to doubt. To see is to be deceived. But to feel is to believe." -- SGM Ed Parker

    "Sic vis pacem parabellum - If you want peace, prepare for war." -- "The Punisher"


    "Praying Mantis, very good. . . For catching bugs." --Jackie Chan

    "A horse stance is great for taking a dump" --Jet Li

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    Default Re: May 2007 - Form of the Month - Short Form 2

    If you watch the stability of many kenpo black belts, there are moments of imbalance as they transition from one stance to another, in and out of their foot maneuvers. I've learned some neat tricks from Chapel taht enable you to engage those moments of imbalance in transition with improved stability. What was interesting to me was how it improved the whole form, from the floor, up.

    What do y'all do to improve stability in transition?

    D.
    Clear mind, clear movement. Mastery of the Arts is mastery over the Self. That in this moment, this motion, the thoughts, memories, impulses and passions that cloud the mind must yield to the clarity of purpose, and purity of motion.

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    Default Re: May 2007 - Form of the Month - Short Form 2

    Quote Originally Posted by Dr. Dave in da house View Post
    What do y'all do to improve stability in transition? D.
    be stable to begin with? in other words, have a strong base to push off of? I don't know to be honest, would love to hear your insights on this.

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    Default Re: May 2007 - Form of the Month - Short Form 2

    Quote Originally Posted by parkerkarate View Post
    4. Slide your left foot into a left cat stance while covering your right fist (on hip, palm up) with a left vertical fist. Step out into a left neutral bow facing 9 o'clock while simultaneously executing a left outward block and a right reverse punch.


    Don't see how you can be in a neutral bow, whilst at the same time executing a reverse-punch (which requires foward-bow)? So which is it, neutral bow, or forward bow?

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    Default Re: May 2007 - Form of the Month - Short Form 2

    This was my first favourite form!!!!

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    Default Re: May 2007 - Form of the Month - Short Form 2

    I always thought the upward block and downward raking knuckle was a bit silly, does anybody have a reason why this is taught? Preferably a good reason....

    Lamont
    Pekiti Tirsia Kali and Kenpo Karate
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    Default Re: May 2007 - Form of the Month - Short Form 2

    This more than likely not why the raking knuckle is there, but at a semenar with Dillman he said it was to activate all the pressure points on the upper torso.

    To be honest I don't really know and don't like this answer.
    Good question.
    I'll do some more research.

    What I do know is that this is a prime example of nipping the tip
    This teaches head over butt balance.
    the rake motion builds up resistance and making the attack more painful and useful.(with in reason) This is true with a blade, performing this with the tip of the blade and having it cut and bounce down the sterum would be destructive.(holding the knife side ways, not with the blade doing the cutting just the tip. possibly stabbing the attacker a hundred times as the tip bounces down, and taking chunks out)

    Anyone else with more insight?

    hope this helps

    James

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    Default Re: May 2007 - Form of the Month - Short Form 2

    Quote Originally Posted by JamesB View Post
    [/color][/color]

    Don't see how you can be in a neutral bow, whilst at the same time executing a reverse-punch (which requires foward-bow)? So which is it, neutral bow, or forward bow?
    I totally agree with you. I do a half fist in a foward bow. I was just told to post it, don't kill the messenger
    "To hear is to doubt. To see is to be deceived. But to feel is to believe." -- SGM Ed Parker

    "Sic vis pacem parabellum - If you want peace, prepare for war." -- "The Punisher"


    "Praying Mantis, very good. . . For catching bugs." --Jackie Chan

    "A horse stance is great for taking a dump" --Jet Li

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    Default Re: May 2007 - Form of the Month - Short Form 2

    Quote Originally Posted by Blindside View Post
    I always thought the upward block and downward raking knuckle was a bit silly, does anybody have a reason why this is taught? Preferably a good reason....

    Lamont
    Think of it as a gouging knuckle with penetration.
    sean

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    Default Re: May 2007 - Form of the Month - Short Form 2

    Quote Originally Posted by JamesB View Post
    Don't see how you can be in a neutral bow, whilst at the same time executing a reverse-punch (which requires foward-bow)? So which is it, neutral bow, or forward bow?
    If I may ... and hopefully this makes sense.

    Short Form 2 demonstrates power principles in sequence, and in combination. For instance, on the downward blocks (to 4:30 O'clock and 7:30 O'clock) we show torque AND THEN backup mass. (base/pivot with the downward block, AND THEN step through with the heel palm).

    The power principles being demonstrated with the "outward block" (9 O'clock and 3 O'clock) is backup mass. When the Power Principle is Backup mass, we say "WITH"; we block WITH the strike.

    If we were to turn to a forward bow, we would introduce an 'AND THEN' (step out with the block, and then rotate to a foward bow). This would also change the power principle to torque.



    I think ... perhaps ... most accurately, the punch to 9 O'clock and 3 O'clock should not properly be named a 'reverse punch' ... if, by definition, a reverse punch requires a forward bow.

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    Default Re: May 2007 - Form of the Month - Short Form 2

    Quote Originally Posted by parkerkarate View Post
    I totally agree with you. I do a half fist in a foward bow. I was just told to post it, don't kill the messenger
    yup forward bow over here too......and no worries, I know these things just get cut+pasted to get the thread going

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    Default Re: May 2007 - Form of the Month - Short Form 2

    Quote Originally Posted by michaeledward View Post
    The power principles being demonstrated with the "outward block" (9 O'clock and 3 O'clock) is backup mass. When the Power Principle is Backup mass, we say "WITH"; we block WITH the strike.

    If we were to turn to a forward bow, we would introduce an 'AND THEN' (step out with the block, and then rotate to a foward bow). This would also change the power principle to torque.
    is there anything wrong with blocking, 'and then' striking? You'd be teaching a strong block from a neutral-bow, 'and then' a properly formed powerful reverse punch from the forward-bow.......there'd be no ambiguity into what the stances would be, it would be easier to teach, easier to learn, and the focus would be on strong basics...... just thinking out-loud here....

    Quote Originally Posted by michaeledward View Post
    I think ... perhaps ... most accurately, the punch to 9 O'clock and 3 O'clock should not properly be named a 'reverse punch' ... if, by definition, a reverse punch requires a forward bow.
    well I'd agree, but what stance should it be? Whatever it is, it needs to be consistant with what basics have been learnt up to this point. I've never actually seen this form written in this way (with the forward bow). Usually I've seen it referred to as blocking from and punching to 9/3, all from a neutral-bow. Which is just as weird because you can't really punch with the rear hand whilst in neutral.

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    Default Re: May 2007 - Form of the Month - Short Form 2

    James, there is nothing wrong with blocking - AND THEN - striking. In Short Form 2 we learn that with the downward blocks. If it is acceptable to block AND THEN strike, shouldn't we also learn to block WITH the strike?
    That is what this Outward Block move is presenting.

    Why do we learn to use a foward bow with a rear weapon?

    In our school, we are taught this provides 'equal reach' and 'increases power'. (The power principle of torque is not taught til much later).

    If these reasons are true, would there ever be a time where we would not require the extra reach, nor the increased power?

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    Default Re: May 2007 - Form of the Month - Short Form 2

    Quote Originally Posted by JamesB View Post
    [/color][/color]

    Don't see how you can be in a neutral bow, whilst at the same time executing a reverse-punch (which requires foward-bow)? So which is it, neutral bow, or forward bow?
    Great question, James.

    I addressed this issue in my discussion of Short Form 2 in my latest book, American Kenpo Mastery: A Guide for Students and Instructors: http://www.iuniverse.com/bookstore/b...=0-595-40540-1


    There are a few reasons why a neutral (and not a forward) bow is employed when doing the simultaneous block and punch towards 9 o’clock and 3 o’clock:

    (1) it shows how to use back-up mass to get power
    (2) it gives a foundation for more advanced self-defense techniques (e.g., "Shield and Mace")
    (3) it shows how you don’t have to pivot to a forward bow to get power (thus differentiating between what was shown in Long Form 1, or such techniques as Crashing Wings, Crushing Hammer, ect).


    Hope that helps.
    I can do all things through Christ, who strengthens me.
    (Phillipians 4:13)


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    Default Re: May 2007 - Form of the Month - Short Form 2

    Quote Originally Posted by Seabrook View Post
    Great question, James.

    I addressed this issue in my discussion of Short Form 2 in my latest book, American Kenpo Mastery: A Guide for Students and Instructors: http://www.iuniverse.com/bookstore/b...=0-595-40540-1


    There are a few reasons why a neutral (and not a forward) bow is employed when doing the simultaneous block and punch towards 9 o’clock and 3 o’clock:

    (1) it shows how to use back-up mass to get power
    (2) it gives a foundation for more advanced self-defense techniques (e.g., "Shield and Mace")
    (3) it shows how you don’t have to pivot to a forward bow to get power (thus differentiating between what was shown in Long Form 1, or such techniques as Crashing Wings, Crushing Hammer, ect).


    Hope that helps.
    Ya beat me to it, Jamie, and said it better.

    After exposure to the addition of power principles to minimal stance transition, you should reach a point where you can create the vector and penetration of a forward bow without actually milking the time required for transition. I know we've had this discussion before...about deploying the rear hand without bringing the styance all the way around; in the beginner stages, it's a flaw...in later years, provided you've been nailing your stances all along, it's a desirable evolution in the economy of motion.

    D.
    Clear mind, clear movement. Mastery of the Arts is mastery over the Self. That in this moment, this motion, the thoughts, memories, impulses and passions that cloud the mind must yield to the clarity of purpose, and purity of motion.

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    Default Re: May 2007 - Form of the Month - Short Form 2

    Quote Originally Posted by Seabrook View Post
    There are a few reasons why a neutral (and not a forward) bow is employed when doing the simultaneous block and punch towards 9 o’clock and 3 o’clock:

    (1) it shows how to use back-up mass to get power
    (2) it gives a foundation for more advanced self-defense techniques (e.g., "Shield and Mace")
    (3) it shows how you don’t have to pivot to a forward bow to get power (thus differentiating between what was shown in Long Form 1, or such techniques as Crashing Wings, Crushing Hammer, ect).


    Hope that helps.
    Quote Originally Posted by Dr. Dave in da house View Post
    Ya beat me to it, Jamie, and said it better.

    After exposure to the addition of power principles to minimal stance transition, you should reach a point where you can create the vector and penetration of a forward bow without actually milking the time required for transition. I know we've had this discussion before...about deploying the rear hand without bringing the styance all the way around; in the beginner stages, it's a flaw...in later years, provided you've been nailing your stances all along, it's a desirable evolution in the economy of motion.

    D.
    Thanks Jamie, and Dr Dave..... both your posts have helped me put this in perspective a little more. I can appreciate the fact that someone who has internalized their art can get away with a lot more. But I still believe that a beginner learning this form should be given clear, unambiguous basics/stances to execute that will work for them at that exact moment in time, not years later when they miraculously figure things out. Hmmm always had an issue with things like this...

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    Default Re: May 2007 - Form of the Month - Short Form 2

    Quote Originally Posted by Dr. Dave in da house View Post
    If you watch the stability of many kenpo black belts, there are moments of imbalance as they transition from one stance to another, in and out of their foot maneuvers. I've learned some neat tricks from Chapel taht enable you to engage those moments of imbalance in transition with improved stability. What was interesting to me was how it improved the whole form, from the floor, up.

    What do y'all do to improve stability in transition?

    D.
    maintain proper posture and your centerline.
    "It is sobering to reflect that one of the best ways to get yourself a reputation as a dangerous citizen these days is to go about repeating the very phrases which our founding fathers used in the struggle for independence." – Charles A. Beard

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    Default Re: May 2007 - Form of the Month - Short Form 2

    The EPAK Form of the Month for January 2008 is Short 2 again. Lets see wat we can add to this productive thread.
    Quality outweighs quantity every time.

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    Default Re: May 2007 - Form of the Month - Short Form 2

    Quote Originally Posted by NickName99 View Post
    This more than likely not why the raking knuckle is there, but at a semenar with Dillman he said it was to activate all the pressure points on the upper torso.

    To be honest I don't really know and don't like this answer.
    Good question.
    I'll do some more research.

    What I do know is that this is a prime example of nipping the tip
    This teaches head over butt balance.
    the rake motion builds up resistance and making the attack more painful and useful.(with in reason) This is true with a blade, performing this with the tip of the blade and having it cut and bounce down the sterum would be destructive.(holding the knife side ways, not with the blade doing the cutting just the tip. possibly stabbing the attacker a hundred times as the tip bounces down, and taking chunks out)

    Anyone else with more insight?

    hope this helps

    James
    Penetrate, penetrate, penetrate!
    Sean

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    Default Re: May 2007 - Form of the Month - Short Form 2

    Quote Originally Posted by Seabrook View Post
    Great question, James.

    I addressed this issue in my discussion of Short Form 2 in my latest book, American Kenpo Mastery: A Guide for Students and Instructors: http://www.iuniverse.com/bookstore/b...=0-595-40540-1


    There are a few reasons why a neutral (and not a forward) bow is employed when doing the simultaneous block and punch towards 9 o’clock and 3 o’clock:

    (1) it shows how to use back-up mass to get power
    (2) it gives a foundation for more advanced self-defense techniques (e.g., "Shield and Mace")
    (3) it shows how you don’t have to pivot to a forward bow to get power (thus differentiating between what was shown in Long Form 1, or such techniques as Crashing Wings, Crushing Hammer, ect).


    Hope that helps.
    Doing this at the library... I was taught to use a forward bow.
    Sean

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