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Thread: February 2007 EPAK Technique of the Month - Thrusting Wedge

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    Default February 2007 EPAK Technique of the Month - Thrusting Wedge

    Thrusting Wedge (Front- Two-Hand High Push)
    1. An attacker at 12 o'clock pushes you high with both hands.

    2. Step your right foot to 12 o'clock into a right neutral bow as you thrust the outer portion of both of your forearms to create a wedge against your attacker's arms.

    3. Pivot into a right forward bow as you have your left hand grab your attacker's right shoulder and push down to cancel out their zones as your right hand executes a frictional pull down your attacker's left arm.

    4. Pivot back into a right neutral bow as you execute a right upward elbow to your attacker's chin.

    5. Pivot back into a right forward bow as you execute a right outward overhead elbow to your attacker's chest and flow through to a right overhead claw to your attacker's face.

    6. Cross out towards 7:30.
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    Default Re: February 2007 EPAK Technique of the Month - Thrusting Wedge

    The stances don't seem quite correct in this write up.
    • Step forward to a neutral bow as you thrust your hands forward and up, with your elbows out.
    • Drop into a Wide Kneel as your execute a frictional pull down on the aggressor's arms.
    • As you execute an upward elbow, move back to the neutral bow.
    • Move to a High-Wide Stance with the final heel palm claw.
    It seems the write up is focusing on a torque power principle as opposed to marriage of gravity/backup mass. Isn't this technique more 'paint the fence' than 'side-side', Mr. Miagi?

    One other item that is always pointed out where I study is that Thrusting Wedge pivots at the fingertips; and this contrasts with Blinding Sacrifice which pivots at the elbow. This is one (of several) reasons why these techniques are sequenced in Long Three.

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    Default Re: February 2007 EPAK Technique of the Month - Thrusting Wedge

    Event Mr. Wedlake does it the same way that Mr. Palanzo teaches it:
    • Step in with your right foot toward 12 o'clock into a right forward bow and deliver the two eye flicks while your elbows come out (wedge your way in)
    • Pivot into a side hourse while your left hand grabs above the elbow pinning his arm and delivering a right upward elbow to the chin
    • Than pivot back to neutral bow and deliver and over head heel palm claw to the nose
    • Right front cross over reverse and cover out
    Last edited by parkerkarate; 02-01-2007 at 06:33 PM.
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    Default Re: February 2007 EPAK Technique of the Month - Thrusting Wedge

    The first two write-ups seem to contain odd stance arrangements from my perspective. And I recall this attack being against a front choke (or maybe a strangle, can't recall right now). I've not heard of this tech being applied to a push before anyway.

    1. Firstly, I don't see how it is possible to 'step forwards' without using a forward-bow. The direction you step (forwards) dictates which stance to use to get there.

    2. How is it possible to form the 'wedge' with both forearms whilst being in a neutral-bow? Your shoulders would surely be aligned wrongly? I can't see any other way to do this other than being in a forward-bow - unless you twisted at the waist but that would be a rather questionable action imo.

    3. After the forward bow, control the attacker's right arm and pivot to a right neutral-bow with a right upward elbow.

    So I've got 'step forwards into forward-bow with the wedge, then pivot out to neutral with the upward-elbow'. Looks like I'm doing this technique very differently to whats written here anway...

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    Default Re: February 2007 EPAK Technique of the Month - Thrusting Wedge

    James, I could be with you on the Forward Bow. I almost wrote a forward bow in my write up. I think the transition to the Wide Kneel works better from a forward than a neutral. (In addition to your point about the shoulder alignment). In recent discussions at our school, we have been looking at the last three stances - omitting the first stance.

    I think I like : Forward Bow - Wide Kneel - Neutral Bow - High Wide Kneel.

    As I look at Long Three - Thrusting Wedge moves 'Down-Up-Down' and Blinding Sacrifice moves 'In-Out-In'.

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    Default Re: February 2007 EPAK Technique of the Month - Thrusting Wedge

    Quote Originally Posted by parkerkarate View Post
    Than pivot back to neutral bow and deliver and over head heel palm claw to the knows
    do you mean to say the nose knows?
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    Default Re: February 2007 EPAK Technique of the Month - Thrusting Wedge

    Quote Originally Posted by pete View Post
    do you mean to say the nose knows?
    Hey I had gone back and fixed that, it didn't save.
    "To hear is to doubt. To see is to be deceived. But to feel is to believe." -- SGM Ed Parker

    "Sic vis pacem parabellum - If you want peace, prepare for war." -- "The Punisher"


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    Default Re: February 2007 EPAK Technique of the Month - Thrusting Wedge

    Quote Originally Posted by JamesB View Post
    - unless you twisted at the waist but that would be a rather questionable action imo.
    why would this be questionable?
    "Rust Never Sleeps" - N.Young.

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    Default Re: February 2007 EPAK Technique of the Month - Thrusting Wedge

    It's been my experience the "Parker" techniques can vary greatly in execution among schools. For instance, here's the way I have it in my original notes:

    Thrusting Wedge

    DEFENSE: Highline grab attempt/push or choke
    STANCE: Natural
    1) Step back abruptly into a right forward bow simultaneously executing double extended outward blocks
    2) Transition into a right neutral bow executing a right rising elbow to opponent’s chin while checking with the left hand
    3) Settle using marriage of gravity with a right sword hand strike to opponent’s left collar bone

    I notice similarties on all the descriptions. I suppose the differences simply reflect instructor preference.
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    Default Re: February 2007 EPAK Technique of the Month - Thrusting Wedge

    Quote Originally Posted by pete View Post
    why would this be questionable?
    it is my understanding that twisting at the waist whilst in a neutral bow will degrade the stablity of one's body and make one vulnerable to attack. So I guess I would question why anyone would choose to do this given the option of better alternatives (i.e. a properly aligned neutral-bow or a properly aligned forward bow).

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    Default Re: February 2007 EPAK Technique of the Month - Thrusting Wedge

    Quote Originally Posted by JamesB View Post
    it is my understanding that twisting at the waist whilst in a neutral bow will degrade the stablity of one's body and make one vulnerable to attack. So I guess I would question why anyone would choose to do this given the option of better alternatives (i.e. a properly aligned neutral-bow or a properly aligned forward bow).
    You grabed him right? So when you transition, you check his height and weight. Just like Gift of Destruction. Just make sure you pull him diagonally down and not just back or than you will be vulnerable.
    "To hear is to doubt. To see is to be deceived. But to feel is to believe." -- SGM Ed Parker

    "Sic vis pacem parabellum - If you want peace, prepare for war." -- "The Punisher"


    "Praying Mantis, very good. . . For catching bugs." --Jackie Chan

    "A horse stance is great for taking a dump" --Jet Li

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    Default Re: February 2007 EPAK Technique of the Month - Thrusting Wedge

    twisting from the waist, with proper spinal alignment, is an internal method of generating power while also maintaining root and mobility.

    for example, take the last 2 moves prior to cover:
    - from neutral bow rotate counter-clockwise to launch the right upward elbow.
    - then, while remaining in the neutral bow, rotate clockwise to deliver the downward palm

    other key points:
    -allow your movement to come up from your feet, pushing and pulling into the ground.
    -keep your spine expanding, from tailbone to occiput, allowing it to become the center of your rotation
    -make a small circle movement in your left hip as you go from counter-clock to clockwise
    -keep both hand rotating as your arms move, palms twisting away from each other on the elbow strike, to palms facing each other on the palm heel.

    this is one of the key power principles taught in the internal arts...
    "Rust Never Sleeps" - N.Young.

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    Default Re: February 2007 EPAK Technique of the Month - Thrusting Wedge

    Quote Originally Posted by pete View Post
    twisting from the waist, with proper spinal alignment, is an internal method of generating power while also maintaining root and mobility.

    for example, take the last 2 moves prior to cover:
    - from neutral bow rotate counter-clockwise to launch the right upward elbow.
    - then, while remaining in the neutral bow, rotate clockwise to deliver the downward palm

    other key points:
    -allow your movement to come up from your feet, pushing and pulling into the ground.
    -keep your spine expanding, from tailbone to occiput, allowing it to become the center of your rotation
    -make a small circle movement in your left hip as you go from counter-clock to clockwise
    -keep both hand rotating as your arms move, palms twisting away from each other on the elbow strike, to palms facing each other on the palm heel.

    this is one of the key power principles taught in the internal arts...
    ok thanks - I'm not familiar with the 'internal arts' as you say, so I'll ponder this for a while. On the surface it seems to contradict what I have been taught as 'correct' for a neutral bow (which is no more than a horse-stance in my mind) but I can appreciate the approaches of other arts at any rate.

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    Default Re: February 2007 EPAK Technique of the Month - Thrusting Wedge

    I have to agree with James B here, right down the line.

    First off, Doc has (I believe) talked about this here before. It is difficult to seperate the hands in a push as the arms are structuresd for maximum resistance to your wedge. However, in an attempted choke or lapel grab, the structure is weaker. Also, you are usually dealing with more forward momentum in a push.

    Steping into a forward bow is a more natural entry, and sets you up to transition into a neutral bow to add power to the pull and elbow strike. You don't need the pull down on his right shoulder to establish dimensional control. The crane gets all three. Also;

    Quote Originally Posted by pete View Post
    why would this be questionable?
    Even internally, if you misalign heaven and earth, you go to hell! Twisting the waist/spine destroys structural integrety throughout the body. This tech depends on stance changes for its power generation, and that requires solid structure. You could get adequate power from twisting, but not as much as with good structure and stance changes. And twisting will not deal well with his momentum- at least as far as I can see. Consider what will happen if your elbow doesn't connect good. Or say it does and he collapses into you. Or his charge was just hard and fast enough to overwhelm you. You need structure and solid stances to deal with that.

    Just a view from the bottom.

    Dan C
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    Default Re: February 2007 EPAK Technique of the Month - Thrusting Wedge

    Quote Originally Posted by thedan View Post
    Twisting the waist/spine destroys structural integrety throughout the body.
    very much not true. the body can and should effectively twist from the waist, the solar plex, and the shoulders. all the while the spine is lengthening, opening the spaces between the vertebrae, and yes, connecting to 'heaven and earth'... connection to earth to root, connection to heaven to maintain mobility. mastery of this technique provides the body method for the whip like power in tai chi, and to an even greater extent in baguazhang. there is no reason these qualities should be ignored in improving one's kenpo.
    "Rust Never Sleeps" - N.Young.

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    Default Re: February 2007 EPAK Technique of the Month - Thrusting Wedge

    Quote Originally Posted by pete View Post
    very much not true. the body can and should effectively twist from the waist, the solar plex, and the shoulders. all the while the spine is lengthening, opening the spaces between the vertebrae, and yes, connecting to 'heaven and earth'... connection to earth to root, connection to heaven to maintain mobility. mastery of this technique provides the body method for the whip like power in tai chi, and to an even greater extent in baguazhang. there is no reason these qualities should be ignored in improving one's kenpo.
    Well, sir, I'll defer to your experience as to how much of this should be used in kenpo. I agree to some extent. I've been called up for advocating using "body english" here before! But, while this works well with the stances, transitions and footwork of taiji, even in taiji, you can go too far. In kenpo, useing this wrong inhibits power and destroys structure.

    Twisting as you enter with the wedge seems to me to be a good example of useing it wrong. The wedge is not a major move- not a power move. You don't need twisting power to enter. For the crane hand pull and elbow, you get a lot of twisting power (torque) with the stance change, plus good structure to support the strike and/or to support you if things go south too quickly. Useing only body torque feels to me like it breaks down body structure entirely with a kenpo base.

    If you can shed more insight on this, I'd certainly listen and try your ideas. But this is what I feel while "living in" the technique (little taiji lingo there- impressed?).

    Dan C
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    Default Re: February 2007 EPAK Technique of the Month - Thrusting Wedge

    Quote Originally Posted by thedan View Post
    Well, sir, I'll defer to your experience as to how much of this should be used in kenpo. I agree to some extent. I've been called up for advocating using "body english" here before! But, while this works well with the stances, transitions and footwork of taiji, even in taiji, you can go too far. In kenpo, useing this wrong inhibits power and destroys structure.

    Twisting as you enter with the wedge seems to me to be a good example of useing it wrong. The wedge is not a major move- not a power move. You don't need twisting power to enter. For the crane hand pull and elbow, you get a lot of twisting power (torque) with the stance change, plus good structure to support the strike and/or to support you if things go south too quickly. Useing only body torque feels to me like it breaks down body structure entirely with a kenpo base.

    If you can shed more insight on this, I'd certainly listen and try your ideas. But this is what I feel while "living in" the technique (little taiji lingo there- impressed?).

    Dan C
    The elbow dosen't only use torque, it uses opposing force. You pull your opponent in at the same time you elbow. Than you use torque and marriage of gravity when you do the over head heel palm claw. When you do the eye pokes you are bracing, so as you said you do not need to twist.
    "To hear is to doubt. To see is to be deceived. But to feel is to believe." -- SGM Ed Parker

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    Default Re: February 2007 EPAK Technique of the Month - Thrusting Wedge

    I don't seem to have so many stance changes when I do it. Step into a right forward bow for the wedge and the eye gouges, then grab the shoulder with the left hand and rotate into a neutral bow at the same time as you deliver a right upward elbow.

    Why would you need to go into a forward bow for the claw? The face is right there.

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    Talking Re: February 2007 EPAK Technique of the Month - Thrusting Wedge

    the wedge when executed correctly is stronger than the push or attempted choke,triangles are stronger than the straight line. you can twist from the nuetral after the upward elbow but you have a very minor adjustment step/weight shift to accomodate your alignment, why no one has mentioned the eye rakes in the beginning i dont know and the way i deliver it you control the arm but i don't check the shoulder there is no need to due to your range and the fact your opponent is allready square to you ideally that is.
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    Default Re: February 2007 EPAK Technique of the Month - Thrusting Wedge

    one more word on the 'twisting'... your mindset while using it should not be to resist or establish bracing angles which would be using force against force. rather the twisting would act more to yield to the attackers force and lead them to a position of disadvantage, from where you can counter.

    i'm not advocating twisting while entering the wedge, but after the wedge is estalished to launch the right elbow.... parkerkarate seems to get it, using opposing forces to push the elbow while pulling at the left arm.

    amy seems to be on board with this as well, as she talks about not changing too many stances. if your not changing stances, then the power is either coming solely from your arms, or shifting, turning, or twisting to get the whole body involved.

    finally the grab to the shoulder is a good way of getting it countered with a wrap around, ala Obscure Claws. better off to check at the tricep.
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