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Thread: October 2006 Technique Of The Month - Begging Hands

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    Default October 2006 Technique Of The Month - Begging Hands

    Begging Hands (Front- Two-Hand Grab to Wrists)
    1. An attacker at 12 o'clock directly grabs your wrists with both hands; their left hand to your right wrist, right hand to your left wrist.

    2. Step back with your left foot to 6 o'clock into a right neutral bow facing 12 o'clock as you circle your hands from the inside out (up, over, and on top) of your attacker's wrists, simulating the begging hands.

    3. Immediately slide your right foot back into a transitional right cat stance. Execute a right front kick to your attacker's groin.

    4. Land in a right neutral bow facing 12 o'clock. Execute a left front kick to your attacker's chin or chest.

    5. Land in a left neutral bow facing 12 o'clock as you utilize back-up mass and execute twin torquing palm strikes under your attacker's ribcage.

    6. Cross out to 4:30.
    Quality outweighs quantity every time.

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    Default Re: October 2006 Technique Of The Month - Begging Hands

    My first school did this with large circles when we turned the wrists up, and we lifted our arms higher. Second school corrected this. If you lift his arms too high, you may pull him up into partially obscured kick to your groin. Also, you don't necessarily want to break free of the holds, just weaken them. If you break free too quick, there is no unballancing pull. There is the problem as well that this attack is more likely to occur in close, possibly tied up with him and moving for advantage. You need to step back and straighten his arms a little as well as getting some distance to use a weapon that is not tied up- the kick.

    I like to thrusting heel kick his chest with the second kick. He'll be in a partial squat from the groin kick. Really blasts him away! But a front kick to a slack jaw would do a lot of dammage, if you feel the need.

    Dan C

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    JamesB is offline
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    Default Re: October 2006 Technique Of The Month - Begging Hands

    I just noticed this older thread but had a question regarding the attack for this technique. Apart from the fact its a double wrist-grab, what is the attacker's intentions beyond this? I think its unlikely he'll just stand holding onto you - I'd say it's more likely that he will pull you forwards, or attempt to pull your center of gravity over your legs to make you less able to move. Does anyone have any thoughts on this.

    So if the attack is indeed a grab+pull, does this invalidate the first move of the technique as written - which is a "step back into stance". It makes more sense to me to step forwards torwards the attacker if he is pulling you that way - in other words go with the 'path of least resistance', establish your base, and start your technique from there.

    How do people train the attack?

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    Default Re: October 2006 Technique Of The Month - Begging Hands

    Hmm... a BLUE BELT technique... I'm afraid I have 58 other techniques to learn before this one...

    However, as always, cut and pasted into my Kenpo Notes...

    Thanks for the write-up, Rob. Here's to hoping that the thread will picks up some now that James has knocked the dust loose on it...

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    Default Re: October 2006 Technique Of The Month - Begging Hands

    Quote Originally Posted by JamesB View Post
    How do people train the attack?
    Actually, when I work this technique, I explain that I find this a very realistic attack when a "gentleman" is dealing with a woman. Because a two handed grab ties up both of my weapons, and both of his weapons, it is kind of a dumb move, isn't it? So, what is the point.... It is a grab to intimidate and create a submission. I can easily imagine a couple out for an evening, and the male part of the couple putting this grab on to his date. The attack is the dual wrist grab, then turn the wrists inward, locking out the elbows, and push the arms up into the shoulders. So, I guess I see it as a torque and push type of grab.

    I can imagine from the third person point of view, this attack does not look nearly as aggressive as it is.

    I can only imagine this attack when the aggressor is significantly stronger or larger than the defender. I think.

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    Default Re: October 2006 Technique Of The Month - Begging Hands

    Michael, nice thoughts there. But I'm still not sure the attacker won't be pulling the arms towards him rather than pushing them in towards the victim (that is what you are getting at, right?).

    I kind of picture the attacker seizing one arm first (maybe from the side), and pulling the defender around and toward them - the defender then tries to release the attacker's grip with their spare hand, which is then seized by the attacker's other hand, eventually ending up with the the double wrist-grab scenario....?

    I guess this is the example that KenpoJujuitso3 gave in the recent thread on HookingWings - when you can't step back you go forwards and graft into Thrusting Wedge (or do Desparate Falcons maybe). And when you can step back you do Begging Hands. Problem is I'm just not seeing the scenario where the attacker has hold of your arms and lets you pull away from him...

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    Default Re: October 2006 Technique Of The Month - Begging Hands

    Part of the first move is a release, so hopefullly, even if the bad guy doesn't let you 'Pull away from him', by rotating your hands in and up, you are breaking his grip with the same wrist release we learn in Long 3.

    So, if the bad guys' force is toward him and in, I execute release (get on top, pull against the thumb) as I step back. My bicep is stronger than his thumb muscle. He is no longer holding me. No?

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    Default Re: October 2006 Technique Of The Month - Begging Hands

    Quote Originally Posted by JamesB View Post
    Michael, nice thoughts there. But I'm still not sure the attacker won't be pulling the arms towards him rather than pushing them in towards the victim (that is what you are getting at, right?).

    I kind of picture the attacker seizing one arm first (maybe from the side), and pulling the defender around and toward them - the defender then tries to release the attacker's grip with their spare hand, which is then seized by the attacker's other hand, eventually ending up with the the double wrist-grab scenario....?

    I guess this is the example that KenpoJujuitso3 gave in the recent thread on HookingWings - when you can't step back you go forwards and graft into Thrusting Wedge (or do Desparate Falcons maybe). And when you can step back you do Begging Hands. Problem is I'm just not seeing the scenario where the attacker has hold of your arms and lets you pull away from him...
    You might, also be a little too quick to be ready to graft. Often times the techniques you know will work in one direction, as well as another or with weapon modifications. No offense intended, but the one thing I have found over the years is that we, often, are not as cool, or as quick as we'd like to think. And so, often times, as I teach, I build in a little of what I like to call the "Goober Factor". Whoooops! He attacked me! I did something that didn't quite come out right, and therefore, may be considered to have "Goobered" it.

    If someone is pulling your wrists in towards them, or to their respective sides, they are probably, as has been said, going to be stronger than you ... Substantially, but not necessarily so. They may also be juiced, or just simply angry, for instance. e.g. I have often dreamed of Sandra Bullock pulling me in via my wrists <sigh> BUT, that may well be for a different forum. LOL!

    However, if someone should grab you that way and begin to pull you in, you might find, on consideration, that you don't even really need to complete the hand motions. And in some instance completion might be a detriment, such as pulling in with your hands up, open, and relatively un-indexed, leaving them unable to fend off the clash between your body and your attackers. But I digress.

    As you step in, the theory I am looking at is that a weapon is a weapon is a weapon. As you move in, you may not be able to correctly target to hit with the feet. However, that shouldn't dissuade you from connecting with the attacker's groin with your shin bone(s). It would be quite easy to do a right/left, or a left/right series of two shinbone hits to the groin if you are too close to fire one low then one high, or even vice-versa. It reminds me of a time many years ago when a fellow was rolling in on me with a right roundhouse punch at the same time I was throwing a right handsword. He moved in, the handsword missed ... the forearm caught him on the SCM region. Whhup! Der 'tis! Down like a sack o' taters!

    Of course, it might not look as cool if you did it that way, but I think there is the possibility of imparting more damage to the attacker's body than by trying to roll around in a manner that allows you to hit with the ball of your foot. And in commitment, we often overlook the time lag factor between attack, response, realizing the commited response won't work as practiced, thinking about it and then subverting to a different, hopefully, more effective defense.

    Personally, I've never seen anything wrong with the above thoughts, but then ... I am old.

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