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Thread: September 2006 - Technique of the MOnth - Twirling Wings

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    Default September 2006 - Technique of the MOnth - Twirling Wings

    Twirling Wings (Rear-- Two Hand Shoulder Grab)
    1. An attacker at 6 o'clock grabs your shoulders with both hands.

    2. Step your left foot to 4:30 into a twist stance as you cock your hands at your right hip.

    3. Unwind into a left neutral bow facing 6 o'clock as you utilize torque and execute a left outward block.

    4. Continue the flow of motion into a left forward bow as you execute a right inward elbow. The left hand will remain as a left block.

    5. Switch. Your right hand will come up high on a vertical plane to check off your attacker's arms as you pivot into a left fighting horse stance facing 9 o'clock as you execute a left inward elbow to your attacker's left ribs.
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    Default Re: September 2006 - Technique of the MOnth - Twirling Wings

    Quote Originally Posted by Rob Broad
    Twirling Wings (Rear-- Two Hand Shoulder Grab)
    1. An attacker at 6 o'clock grabs your shoulders with both hands.

    2. Step your left foot to 4:30 into a twist stance as you cock your hands at your right hip.

    3. Unwind into a left neutral bow facing 6 o'clock as you utilize torque and execute a left outward block.

    4. Continue the flow of motion into a left forward bow as you execute a right inward elbow. The left hand will remain as a left block.

    5. Switch. Your right hand will come up high on a vertical plane to check off your attacker's arms as you pivot into a left fighting horse stance facing 9 o'clock as you execute a left inward elbow to your attacker's left ribs.
    That's the way I learned it also, except after the last move we switch to a left "waiter's" block (sorry I don't know the correct term) and sweep with a cross out.

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    Default Re: September 2006 - Technique of the MOnth - Twirling Wings

    I employ a right hand pin to the opponent's left arm as I am stepping back to prevent the opponent from running his hand into my face. It also creates a significant amount of strain on the attacker's wrist.
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    Default Re: September 2006 - Technique of the Month - Twirling Wings

    Quote Originally Posted by Seabrook
    I employ a right hand pin to the opponent's left arm as I am stepping back to prevent the opponent from running his hand into my face. It also creates a significant amount of strain on the attacker's wrist.
    Me too. When someone puts their hands on you, you put your hands on them.

    It can check the attacker's width too.

    --Amy
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    Default Re: September 2006 - Technique of the MOnth - Twirling Wings

    Quote Originally Posted by Seabrook
    I employ a right hand pin to the opponent's left arm as I am stepping back to prevent the opponent from running his hand into my face. It also creates a significant amount of strain on the attacker's wrist.
    Quote Originally Posted by Amy Long
    When someone puts their hands on you, you put your hands on them. It can check the attacker's width too.
    I like this! Thx!

    I was taught that this grab could be to the shoulders or the collar, so we shrug (possible choke) and look over the left shoulder. If his hand is there, pin with your chin/jaw. I never liked this- especially if you don't get a pin with the chin.

    But, there must be a reason the technique was written with the "stack" (left fist over right, palms facing each other). Any one have any thoughts?

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    Default Re: September 2006 - Technique of the MOnth - Twirling Wings

    Quote Originally Posted by thedan
    But, there must be a reason the technique was written with the "stack" (left fist over right, palms facing each other). Any one have any thoughts?
    I don't know what you mean about the 'stack'.

    The pin with the chin is an interesting idea. If you can't pin with the hands for some reason, this is a good alternative.

    --Amy
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    Default Re: September 2006 - Technique of the MOnth - Twirling Wings

    Quote Originally Posted by amylong
    The pin with the chin is an interesting idea. If you can't pin with the hands for some reason, this is a good alternative.
    Hmmm, I seem to remember seeing that somewhere else before?

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    Default Re: September 2006 - Technique of the MOnth - Twirling Wings

    Quote Originally Posted by thedan
    I like this! Thx!

    I was taught that this grab could be to the shoulders or the collar, so we shrug (possible choke) and look over the left shoulder. If his hand is there, pin with your chin/jaw. I never liked this- especially if you don't get a pin with the chin.

    But, there must be a reason the technique was written with the "stack" (left fist over right, palms facing each other). Any one have any thoughts?
    The 'hand pin' does seem to be a fairly critical component of the technique however - this is certainly what we do in this technique. I've never seen this technique described without the pin until now.

    Perhaps the chambering at the hip is designed to stablize the body and recruit enough stablity so the attacker cannot manipulate your body any further? Maybe once a grounded stance has been obtained the hand configuration is changed so that the right hand pins and the left hand remains at your hip. Wild guesses here...

    james

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    Default Re: September 2006 - Technique of the MOnth - Twirling Wings

    Quote Originally Posted by Seabrook View Post
    I employ a right hand pin to the opponent's left arm as I am stepping back to prevent the opponent from running his hand into my face. It also creates a significant amount of strain on the attacker's wrist.
    Mr. Seabrook, couple of observations/questions. With the right hand pin to his left, when I deliver the first elbow strike there is a downward component to the strike. It also doesn't have the full range of motion of the stack at the right hip (Amy; this stack is just the double chamber of both fists at the right hip, left above right fist, palms facing each other). The inward/downward elbow doesn't seem to be much less effective a strike. It has less applied torque, but more marriage of gravity. It doesn't tend to move him back as much, so you are left in a better position for the second elbow strike. Does this match with your observations and experiences?

    Reason I'm asking is that I've tried to play with the timeing to get that right hand down for a horizontal elbow strike. But, to deal with the hand I've just let go I have to initiate my left block before starting to torque into the elbow strike. This is a telegraph. Starting to torque as I drop the right to horizontal does seem to significantly decrease power. Do you do this as an inward/downward right elbow, or do you go to the straight inward (horizontal) configuration?

    Dan C
    Last edited by thedan; 09-04-2006 at 12:36 PM.

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    Default Re: September 2006 - Technique of the MOnth - Twirling Wings

    Quote Originally Posted by JamesB View Post
    Perhaps the chambering at the hip is designed to stablize the body and recruit enough stablity so the attacker cannot manipulate your body any further? Maybe once a grounded stance has been obtained the hand configuration is changed so that the right hand pins and the left hand remains at your hip. Wild guesses here...
    James, interesting observations. But I can't see this going from stack to pin to strike. Maybe stack to check to strike. One reason is timeing- takes too long, and once the block is initiated there is no need for a pin. The other is that I think the stack may be an internal indexing move, as well as providing the stability you talk about. Once the indexing mechanism is synaptically hard wired, this technique would flow quickly from point of origin. This seems to work better with a check vs. a pin if you go to a stack first. If I pin, it works best if I only chamber the left.

    Forgive my floundering here, I'm a little over my head again. But, you can't learn to swim if you don't get in the water...

    Dan C

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    Default Re: September 2006 - Technique of the Month - Twirling Wings

    Quote Originally Posted by thedan View Post
    Mr. Seabrook, couple of observations/questions. With the right hand pin to his left, when I deliver the first elbow strike there is a downward component to the strike. It also doesn't have the full range of motion of the stack at the right hip (Amy; this stack is just the double chamber of both fists at the right hip, left above right fist, palms facing each other). The inward/downward elbow doesn't seem to be much less effective a strike. It has less applied torque, but more marriage of gravity. It doesn't tend to move him back as much, so you are left in a better position for the second elbow strike. Does this match with your observations and experiences?

    Reason I'm asking is that I've tried to play with the timeing to get that right hand down for a horizontal elbow strike. But, to deal with the hand I've just let go I have to initiate my left block before starting to torque into the elbow strike. This is a telegraph. Starting to torque as I drop the right to horizontal does seem to significantly decrease power. Do you do this as an inward/downward right elbow, or do you go to the straight inward (horizontal) configuration?

    Dan C
    When I do the pin and the outward block, the first strike is actually to the opponent's left arm where the block strikes at the elbow. My right elbow strike is the second blow and I do it with a shuffle.

    If I understand you, you're making the elbow to the ribs the first strike. That's the difference in application, if I understand you correctly. I do believe the elbow strikes are done the same way, downward striking those lower two ribs.

    I don't do the stack for this move, which is why I didn't understand what you were saying. (Thanks for clarifying though.)

    --Amy
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    Default Re: September 2006 - Technique of the Month - Twirling Wings

    Quote Originally Posted by amylong View Post
    When I do the pin and the outward block, the first strike is actually to the opponent's left arm where the block strikes at the elbow. My right elbow strike is the second blow and I do it with a shuffle.
    Thanks, Amy. I did try this with the block to the elbow as the first strike, and it did work. But I filed this as a changeup move and went back to base. So, you do this as part of your base technique?

    Dan C

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    Default Re: September 2006 - Technique of the MOnth - Twirling Wings

    Quote Originally Posted by thedan View Post
    James, interesting observations. But I can't see this going from stack to pin to strike. Maybe stack to check to strike. One reason is timeing- takes too long, and once the block is initiated there is no need for a pin. The other is that I think the stack may be an internal indexing move, as well as providing the stability you talk about. Once the indexing mechanism is synaptically hard wired, this technique would flow quickly from point of origin. This seems to work better with a check vs. a pin if you go to a stack first. If I pin, it works best if I only chamber the left.

    Forgive my floundering here, I'm a little over my head again. But, you can't learn to swim if you don't get in the water...

    Dan C
    yeah I was only guessing with the stack-to-pin thing, doesn't seem practical as you say. I can't find my class-notes on this tech but I've had some more thoughts:

    The attack is a pull to the shoulders. When attacking, how many of us give a slight pull backwards but then allow the defender to turn and execute the technique as we wait? I'm thinking that the attacker may grab and try to pull us backwards and down to the ground? So before any of the blocks and elbows happen we've got to survive this attack and stabilize our base. So footwork is critical here I feel.

    You mentioned the 'pin the hand with the chin'. This seems a little strange to me, but only because I've not encountered this tactic before. But I believe turning the head (and chin) to the shoulder certainly is a desirable thing to do in terms of structure. We do this in a few of our techniques, but the basic idea is to step back into forward bow, PAM the front foot and drop the chin to the shoulder. We don't pin the hand with the chin, but the difference in stance strength is quite surprising. It sounds like you are doing this as well.

    A good experiment for those who are interested, is to have someone either push or pull you from behind whilst you are in a forward-bow. Test the strength of the stance, first by looking straight forwards, and then by dropping the chin to the shoulder. Its pretty neat, I couldn't stop grinning when I was first shown this.

    The other thing we do is pivot sharply to 10.30/11 o'clock whilst pinning the hand (before/as we step back). The turn of the shoulder causes the first manipulation of the attacker's wrist. Once this is achieved we hit the forward bow and stablize with a PAM. We then pivot out to neutral facing 6.00, still maintaining the pin to the hand. The attacker should be completely under control at this point, up on his toes, left arm locked up, ribs exposed. Our outward-block does not try to break the elbow but rather controls the wrist/elbow lock instead.

    Once we've got to this stage we shuffle in with the inward elbow. I'm not expecting to get the second elbow-shot in. The attacker should have been in such a week stance that the first elbow will send him to the floor. There's no 'figure-eight' pattern for us at any rate. If we want the second elbow we put in an additional drag-step to chase after him.

    More thoughts on the hand-pin: The attacker's hands will be in a different configuration depending on how he grabs. He will be 'open handed' if he grabs the shoulder, or 'close-handed' if he grabs our clothing instead (i.e. forming a fist). So I'm thinking the hand-pin might have a different effect in each case.

    james

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    Default Re: September 2006 - Technique of the MOnth - Twirling Wings

    Quote Originally Posted by JamesB View Post
    The attack is a pull to the shoulders. When attacking, how many of us give a slight pull backwards but then allow the defender to turn and execute the technique as we wait? I'm thinking that the attacker may grab and try to pull us backwards and down to the ground? So before any of the blocks and elbows happen we've got to survive this attack and stabilize our base. So footwork is critical here I feel.
    Dang-it, James-- I wuz avoid'n this topic 'til I wuz settl'd on th' upper body stuff! But, since ya brought it up...

    It sounds like some people here may be doing this as I originally learned it, steping back into a full twist. My first school/instructor was really big on twists, and was pretty effective with them. But, as you point out in this case, as the attack varries the twist falls apart. It is very unstable, and a yank to the ground will either pull you down or cause you to drop deep as you hit the stance- if you can hit it that fast.

    Later I was taught to step back with a straight leg to @ 5:00- much more stable and adaptable as the pull varries.

    This is one of the reasons I filed Amy's block/strike to the arm as a variation and went with the base tech. Sometimes, say if he steped back with his right as he pulled, it is a good-even necessary- thing. Others, say with your yank to the ground, you really need the speed and flow to be there.

    Good point, sir.

    Dan C

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    Default Re: September 2006 - Technique of the MOnth - Twirling Wings

    Quote Originally Posted by JamesB View Post
    You mentioned the 'pin the hand with the chin'. This seems a little strange to me, but only because I've not encountered this tactic before. But I believe turning the head (and chin) to the shoulder certainly is a desirable thing to do in terms of structure. We do this in a few of our techniques, but the basic idea is to step back into forward bow, PAM the front foot and drop the chin to the shoulder. We don't pin the hand with the chin, but the difference in stance strength is quite surprising. It sounds like you are doing this as well.
    Yes. In addition to the index function, you need to look at your target. The step back as I learned it is to a modified twist, leg straight, but not a forward bow. Sensitivity and regaining ballance and a stable base would determine exact foot placement. Also, I go onto the ball of the left foot, not heel down in a good forward bow. But, things may change as I rework this with some of the ideas presented here, by you and others.

    The other thing we do is pivot sharply to 10.30/11 o'clock whilst pinning the hand (before/as we step back). The turn of the shoulder causes the first manipulation of the attacker's wrist. Once this is achieved we hit the forward bow and stablize with a PAM. We then pivot out to neutral facing 6.00, still maintaining the pin to the hand. The attacker should be completely under control at this point, up on his toes, left arm locked up, ribs exposed. Our outward-block does not try to break the elbow but rather controls the wrist/elbow lock instead.
    My neurologist is going to send a hit man to visit all you guys. I'm not supposed to be working my shoulders and arms right now- but how th' heck can I not try this stuff out?

    Once we've got to this stage we shuffle in with the inward elbow. I'm not expecting to get the second elbow-shot in. The attacker should have been in such a week stance that the first elbow will send him to the floor. There's no 'figure-eight' pattern for us at any rate. If we want the second elbow we put in an additional drag-step to chase after him.
    "Overskill?"

    More thoughts on the hand-pin: The attacker's hands will be in a different configuration depending on how he grabs. He will be 'open handed' if he grabs the shoulder, or 'close-handed' if he grabs our clothing instead (i.e. forming a fist). So I'm thinking the hand-pin might have a different effect in each case.
    True- and so would your hand & arm. You'd have to reach farther out or back for some grabs, which might effect your structure. But I'm getting too far into the deep end again. Back to the wading pool for a bit...

    Dan C

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    Default Re: September 2006 - Technique of the Month - Twirling Wings

    Quote Originally Posted by thedan View Post
    Thanks, Amy. I did try this with the block to the elbow as the first strike, and it did work. But I filed this as a changeup move and went back to base. So, you do this as part of your base technique?

    Dan C
    That's what my instructor teaches as part of the base move. I could easily see it without -- doing it with more of a clear and make the elbow strike the first one. I have found that pinning the arm first does upset the flow some, but since it's taught that way......

    I file the others as options for myself.

    --Amy
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    Default Re: September 2006 - Technique of the Month - Twirling Wings

    Quote Originally Posted by amylong View Post
    That's what my instructor teaches as part of the base move. I could easily see it without -- doing it with more of a clear and make the elbow strike the first one. I have found that pinning the arm first does upset the flow some, but since it's taught that way......
    I file the others as options for myself.
    Thanks. But, that fileing thing- that's the trouble with talking to you guys. I'm fileing and shuffling files all over. (Just kiddin'! It's all godd learnin', and I apreciate all the input!) Funny the things that one files and the other uses, but it's still the same basic system.

    Since James brought it up, what about your footwork? That might make some difference as to preferences with upper body moves.

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    Default Re: September 2006 - Technique of the MOnth - Twirling Wings

    The stack can be used as a teaching tool to help a beginer position the hands. It should not used once you learn to move. Its a fight not a form. Remember point of origin.

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    Default Re: September 2006 - Technique of the MOnth - Twirling Wings

    Quote Originally Posted by MrGarth View Post
    The stack can be used as a teaching tool to help a beginer position the hands. It should not used once you learn to move. Its a fight not a form. Remember point of origin.
    Good point. That is one of the things we were talking about here:

    Quote Originally Posted by thedan View Post
    James, interesting observations. But I can't see this going from stack to pin to strike. Maybe stack to check to strike. One reason is timeing- takes too long, and once the block is initiated there is no need for a pin. The other is that I think the stack may be an internal indexing move, as well as providing the stability you talk about. Once the indexing mechanism is synaptically hard wired, this technique would flow quickly from point of origin. This seems to work better with a check vs. a pin if you go to a stack first. If I pin, it works best if I only chamber the left.
    Do you teach/learn indexing in your system or school? Are there other reasons you do the stack first, then progres to point of origin? I take it you don't grab/pin the left hand.

    I've allways liked this technique. But it is one that I've found needs a little tweaking for it to work- especially as the force of the attack is increased, and as other variations are introduced (size of attacker, angles, hand or foot positioning, etc.).

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    Default Re: September 2006 - Technique of the MOnth - Twirling Wings

    We do this technique for a rear two hand choke armes straight. We do not stack. no pin is necessary. When your virticle outward block hits the elbow it puts him in a finger lock which acts as a painful pin. It lets your rt inward elbow flow. Let the elbow hit in and down not downward. Your opponent folds in on himself. No need to shuffle in on the next elbow. He is still there.

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