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Thread: August 2006 - Set of the Month Striking Set 1

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    Default August 2006 - Set of the Month Striking Set 1

    Bow.

    Start from a horse stance facing 12 o'clock.


    Striking to the front:

    1. Execute a right thrust punch to face level. Execute a right vertical back knuckle to face level.

    2. Execute a left thrust punch to face level. Execute a left vertical back knuckle to face level.

    3. Execute a right thrust punch to face level. Execute a right inverted hammerfist to the groin level.

    4. Execute a left thrust punch to face level. Execute a left inverted hammerfist to the groin level.

    5. Execute a right thrust punch to face level. Execute a right backfist to the temple.

    6. Execute a left thrust punch to face level. Execute a left backfist to the temple.

    7. Execute a right thrust punch to face level. Execute a right inward hammerfist to the ribs.

    8. Execute a left thrust punch to face level. Execute a left inward hammerfist to the ribs.


    Striking to the side:

    9. Execute a right vertical thrust punch to 3 o'clock to face level. Execute a right vertical back knuckle strike to face level.

    10. Execute a left vertical thrust punch to 9 o'clock to face level. Execute a left vertical back knuckle strike to face level.

    11. Execute a right vertical thrust punch to 3 o'clock to face level. Execute a right inverted hammerfist to the groin.

    12. Execute a left vertical thrust punch to 9 o'clock to face level. Execute a left inverted hammerfist to the groin.

    13. Execute a right vertical thrust punch to 3 o'clock to face level. Execute a right backfist to the temple.

    14. Execute a left vertical thrust punch to 9 o'clock to face level. Execute a left backfist to the temple.

    15. Execute a right vertical thrust punch to 3 o'clock to face level. Execute a right inward hammerfist to the ribs.

    16. Execute a left vertical thrust punch to 9 o'clock to face level. Execute a left inward hammerfist to the ribs.


    Double strikes to the front:

    17. Execute a right and a left thrust punch to 12 o'clock to face level. Simultaneously execute a right and a left back knuckle strike to face level.

    18. Execute a right and a left thrust punch to face level. Execute a right and a left inverted hammerfist to groin level.

    19. Execute a right and a left thrust punch to face level. Execute a right and a left backfist to the temple.

    20. Execute a right and a left thrust punch to face level. Execute a right and a left inward hammerfist to the ribs.


    Simultaneous strikes to the sides:

    21. Simultaneously execute a right vertical thrust punch to 3 o'clock to face level as you execute a left vertical punch to 9 o'clock to face level. Simultaneously execute a right back knuckle strike to face level as you execute a left back knuckle strike to face level.

    22. Simultaneously execute a right vertical thrust punch to 3 o'clock to face level as you execute a left vertical punch to 9 o'clock to face level. Simultaneously execute a right inverted hammerfist to the groin as you execute a left inverted hammerfist to the groin.

    23. Simultaneously execute a right vertical thrust punch to 3 o'clock to face level as you execute a left vertical punch to 9 o'clock to face level. Simultaneously execute a right backfist to the temple as you execute a left backfist to the temple.

    24. Simultaneously execute a right vertical thrust punch to 3 o'clock to face level as you execute a left vertical punch to 9 o'clock to face level. Simultaneously execute a right inward hammerfist to the ribs as you execute a left inward hammerfist to the ribs.



    Double strikes to the front:

    25. Slide your left foot to your right into an attention stance with both of your knees slightly bent.

    26. Execute a right and a left thrust punch to face level.

    27. Execute a right and a left back knuckle to face level.

    28. Execute a right and a left inverted hammerfist to the groin.

    29. Execute a right and a left backfist to the temple.

    30. Execute a right and a left inward hammerfist to the ribs.

    Attention stance.
    Bow.
    Quality outweighs quantity every time.

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    Default Re: August 2006 - Set of the Month Striking Set 1

    I'll add a couple of thoughts ... maybe three ...

    1 - When a hand is not striking, be certain it is cocked, palm up, at your hip. Be especially sure to re-cock your hands between each strike/follow up double combination (Steps 17 to 24). Do NOT re-cock between the last set of strikes (Steps 26 to 30).

    2 - Strike Set 1 is an excellent representation of the 'Re-Arrangment Principle' (did I get that right Rob?)

    3 - I HATE this Set. Absolutely my least favorite Kenpo thing to do.

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    Default Re: August 2006 - Set of the Month Striking Set 1

    The vertical punches to 3:00 and 9:00 are anatomically unstable and potentially dangerous. I used to do this set to warm up my shoulders and found I was causing myself persistant discomfort. Lee Wedlake says he dropped the set from his curriculum for this very reason and does not reccomend its use. At his suggestion when I do use the set to warm up I do it slowly and do the vertical punches to 1:30 and 10:30. I show it to my students for historical reference but don't actively teach it.

    Jeff

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    Default Re: August 2006 - Set of the Month Striking Set 1

    Quote Originally Posted by Rob Broad
    Bow.

    Start from a horse stance facing 12 o'clock.


    Striking to the front:

    1. Execute a right thrust punch to face level. Execute a right vertical back knuckle to face level.

    2. Execute a left thrust punch to face level. Execute a left vertical back knuckle to face level.

    3. Execute a right thrust punch to face level. Execute a right inverted hammerfist to the groin level.

    4. Execute a left thrust punch to face level. Execute a left inverted hammerfist to the groin level.

    5. Execute a right thrust punch to face level. Execute a right backfist to the temple.

    6. Execute a left thrust punch to face level. Execute a left backfist to the temple.

    7. Execute a right thrust punch to face level. Execute a right inward hammerfist to the ribs.

    8. Execute a left thrust punch to face level. Execute a left inward hammerfist to the ribs.


    Striking to the side:

    9. Execute a right vertical thrust punch to 3 o'clock to face level. Execute a right vertical back knuckle strike to face level.

    10. Execute a left vertical thrust punch to 9 o'clock to face level. Execute a left vertical back knuckle strike to face level.

    11. Execute a right vertical thrust punch to 3 o'clock to face level. Execute a right inverted hammerfist to the groin.

    12. Execute a left vertical thrust punch to 9 o'clock to face level. Execute a left inverted hammerfist to the groin.

    13. Execute a right vertical thrust punch to 3 o'clock to face level. Execute a right backfist to the temple.

    14. Execute a left vertical thrust punch to 9 o'clock to face level. Execute a left backfist to the temple.

    15. Execute a right vertical thrust punch to 3 o'clock to face level. Execute a right inward hammerfist to the ribs.

    16. Execute a left vertical thrust punch to 9 o'clock to face level. Execute a left inward hammerfist to the ribs.


    Double strikes to the front:

    17. Execute a right and a left thrust punch to 12 o'clock to face level. Simultaneously execute a right and a left back knuckle strike to face level.

    18. Execute a right and a left thrust punch to face level. Execute a right and a left inverted hammerfist to groin level.

    19. Execute a right and a left thrust punch to face level. Execute a right and a left backfist to the temple.

    20. Execute a right and a left thrust punch to face level. Execute a right and a left inward hammerfist to the ribs.


    Simultaneous strikes to the sides:

    21. Simultaneously execute a right vertical thrust punch to 3 o'clock to face level as you execute a left vertical punch to 9 o'clock to face level. Simultaneously execute a right back knuckle strike to face level as you execute a left back knuckle strike to face level.

    22. Simultaneously execute a right vertical thrust punch to 3 o'clock to face level as you execute a left vertical punch to 9 o'clock to face level. Simultaneously execute a right inverted hammerfist to the groin as you execute a left inverted hammerfist to the groin.

    23. Simultaneously execute a right vertical thrust punch to 3 o'clock to face level as you execute a left vertical punch to 9 o'clock to face level. Simultaneously execute a right backfist to the temple as you execute a left backfist to the temple.

    24. Simultaneously execute a right vertical thrust punch to 3 o'clock to face level as you execute a left vertical punch to 9 o'clock to face level. Simultaneously execute a right inward hammerfist to the ribs as you execute a left inward hammerfist to the ribs.



    Double strikes to the front:

    25. Slide your left foot to your right into an attention stance with both of your knees slightly bent.

    26. Execute a right and a left thrust punch to face level.

    27. Execute a right and a left back knuckle to face level.

    28. Execute a right and a left inverted hammerfist to the groin.

    29. Execute a right and a left backfist to the temple.

    30. Execute a right and a left inward hammerfist to the ribs.

    Attention stance.
    Bow.
    I'm very sorry to say, this set is completely and totally without merit from my perspective.
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    Default Re: August 2006 - Set of the Month Striking Set 1

    This is our intro for Form 2.
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    Default Re: August 2006 - Set of the Month Striking Set 1

    Quote Originally Posted by Doc View Post
    I'm very sorry to say, this set is completely and totally without merit from my perspective.

    I actually thnk this set could be taught after Star Block set and before Finger set.
    Quality outweighs quantity every time.

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    Default Re: August 2006 - Set of the Month Striking Set 1

    Quote Originally Posted by Rob Broad View Post
    I actually thnk this set could be taught after Star Block set and before Finger set.
    Anatomically it is really bad, and a prime example of creating material to flesh out curriculum, and to keep people from being bored. As wrong as it gets.
    "Nothing is more dangerous than the conscientiously ignorant, or the sincerely stupid." - Martin Luther King Jr.

    "Knowledge speaks but wisdom listens." - Ed Parker Sr.

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    Default Re: August 2006 - Set of the Month Striking Set 1

    Quote Originally Posted by Doc View Post
    Anatomically it is really bad, and a prime example of creating material to flesh out curriculum, and to keep people from being bored. As wrong as it gets.
    My last instructor didn't teach this, nor a few others. He too thought they were just busy work. I always wondered if we were being shorted, but I got so much other information and training that it wasn't an issue. This could explain why he thought it was not important. Makes me wonder...

    Dan C

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    Default Re: August 2006 - Set of the Month Striking Set 1

    Quote Originally Posted by Doc View Post
    Anatomically it is really bad, and a prime example of creating material to flesh out curriculum, and to keep people from being bored. As wrong as it gets.
    I've never understood the desire to fill the curriculum with more busy work.

    Jeff

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    Default Re: August 2006 - Set of the Month Striking Set 1

    "Busy work" for some maybe, but not for others, including myself.

    Striking Set 1 can really improve sparring skills....
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    Default Re: August 2006 - Set of the Month Striking Set 1

    I'd never even heard of it from any of the other schools I went to until I got to my most recent school when I was a third brown.

    I don't think much of it and don't practice it. I've been trying to run through it lately just in case I need it for something. I haven't so far, except when it was thrown into my last test unexpectedly, but otherwise no.

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    Default Re: August 2006 - Set of the Month Striking Set 1

    Am I correct in thinking that this is also known as the 'punch set'?? Seems veeeeeeery similar.

    I'm with the 'punch set is flawed' people on this one. However I would be genuinely interested in hearing people's thoughts as to how the punch-set could be improved. And for those that find no problems with the punch set, perhaps you might find the time to comment on my own thoughts below if you disagree with any of them:

    1. Learning to punch from a horse-stance is counter-productive because you never punch from this stance in any other circumstance. Extending the punching arm from this position results in a weak, unstable and ineffective punch.

    2. This theme continues throughout the rest of the set. The punches to 3 & 9 (as previously mentioned by KenpoDoc) are basically 'incorrect' and should not be attempted.

    3. The 'combination punches' (backfists, hammerfists etc) are equally problematic, striking from a stance that these punches are not intended to be executed from.

    4. In addition the way the combinations are executed (by rolling the punching arm into the backfist/hammerfist) is an ineffective method to execute these strikes.

    The punch-set is busy work. There are only a limited number of ways to punch correctly. And by correctly, I mean 'effectively'. The punch-set does not contain a single effective punch.

    Quote Originally Posted by Seabrook
    "Busy work" for some maybe, but not for others, including myself.
    Everyone is entitled to an opinion, but are you seriously suggesting that the 'double strikes' to 12 and 3&9 are not 'busy work'?? If you demo'd this set to a boxer how would you convince him or her that they should immediately start learning it?

    Quote Originally Posted by Seabrook
    Striking Set 1 can really improve sparring skills....
    That may be, but sparring 'aint fighting, and I'd say that there are far better ways to 'improve sparring skills' than the punch-set. And I don't think I've ever heard (or seen) of a kick-boxer using punch-set to improve their game either. Bagwork and lots of live training would do a far better job imo.

    So, what can be done to improve the punch-set? It would interest me to compile a list of punches, together with the stance that each punch is designed to be used with, and the target they are designed to hit. Perhaps after this these punches could be organised into a sequence that didn't violate too many kenpo principles...any takers? Let's start with a:

    #1: Reverse vertical punch to ribs.
    #2: ??

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    Default Re: August 2006 - Set of the Month Striking Set 1

    Quote Originally Posted by JamesB View Post
    1. Learning to punch from a horse-stance is counter-productive because you never punch from this stance in any other circumstance. Extending the punching arm from this position results in a weak, unstable and ineffective punch.

    2. This theme continues throughout the rest of the set. The punches to 3 & 9 (as previously mentioned by KenpoDoc) are basically 'incorrect' and should not be attempted.
    I had this argument with someone yesterday regarding removing these, and some other strikes, from the list of basics. Worse than worthless, I think actually trying to use strikes in these configurations is dammaging to your body over time.

    As to improving the set, I think you answered your own question the same way I suggested on basics:

    Bagwork and lots of live training would do a far better job imo.
    Drills, combining stance and footwork with basic strikes in realistic combinations and scenarios. Sensitivity drills that allow/use strikes. Any form of "live" training with realistic striking methods.

    Perhaps after this these punches could be organised into a sequence that didn't violate too many kenpo principles...any takers? Let's start with a:

    #1: Reverse vertical punch to ribs.
    #2: ??
    See, as soon as you start, you're in trouble. The classic reverse punch is wrong, in my opinion. It sets up too much tension in the arm that is counterproductive to speed and power. It also puts most of the stress of impact on the radius, instead of spreading the load to the ulna as well. I try to learn to hit the target properly, instead of trying to throw a picture perfect punch.

    Just my opinion. I realize there are a lot of people very senior to me who disagree, and I'd be willing to consider their reasoned opinions. But that's where I'm at in my training right now.

    Dan C

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    Default Re: August 2006 - Set of the Month Striking Set 1

    Here is an awesome tip of the week that Larry Tatum demonstrates showing the value of the Striking Set.

    http://www.ltatum.com/movies/Week19/...eekMedW19.html
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    Default Re: August 2006 - Set of the Month Striking Set 1

    Quote Originally Posted by thedan View Post
    ISee, as soon as you start, you're in trouble. The classic reverse punch is wrong, in my opinion.
    Dan C
    God Forbid I would ever use "but it works in the cage" as justification for anything (except "what works in the cage?") but on Saturday one of the UFC bouts was stopped with a very traditional straight right reverse punch, left hand at hip, delivered to the solar plexus. The guy clutched at his gut and fell down in agony. A complete fluke. A beautiful punch.

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    Default Re: August 2006 - Set of the Month Striking Set 1

    Quote Originally Posted by JamesB View Post
    1. Learning to punch from a horse-stance is counter-productive because you never punch from this stance in any other circumstance. Extending the punching arm from this position results in a weak, unstable and ineffective punch.
    I don't agree. In fact, if you want me to be blunt about it, one of the reasons why many traditional stylists hit harder than a lot of kenpoists is because of how much repetition they do with punching from a horse stance.

    Getting back to Striking Set 1.....

    By not having to be distracted with angle changes, footwork patterns, and various stance shifts, the goal is to isolate and improve the hand strikes of the set. The student will again see the significance of using the point of origin as a reference between each strike.

    Of course, one can move doing the Striking Set as well, as demonstrated nicely by Mr. Tatum.
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    Default Re: August 2006 - Set of the Month Striking Set 1

    Quote Originally Posted by JamesB View Post
    That may be, but sparring 'aint fighting
    That is true but in my experience those that are very good at continuous sparring are WAY BETTER FIGHTERS than those that claim that sparring isn't fighting.
    I can do all things through Christ, who strengthens me.
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    Default Re: August 2006 - Set of the Month Striking Set 1

    Quote Originally Posted by JamesB View Post
    So, what can be done to improve the punch-set?
    Keep it the way it is and dig deeper.

    Once a student is comfortable with the Striking Set, one can move too more sophisticated movements for creativity. For example, one could try forward and reverse bow stances when executing the strikes. These same strikes can also be used in sparring drills by learning how to roll off of an opponent’s blocking arm when executing a specific strike. Alternatively, contact manipulations for hand grabs could also be taken from the Striking Set.
    I can do all things through Christ, who strengthens me.
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    Default Re: August 2006 - Set of the Month Striking Set 1

    Quote Originally Posted by Seabrook View Post
    I don't agree. In fact, if you want me to be blunt about it, one of the reasons why many traditional stylists hit harder than a lot of kenpoists is because of how much repetition they do with punching from a horse stance.
    The reason that many traditional stylists hit harder is because they utilize correct body mechanics in their training, something that is entirely absent in striking-set #1 as described so far (and endorsed by some) in this thread. But it's got nothing to do with 'style'. Correct is correct no matter what you call it.

    Quote Originally Posted by Seabrook
    By not having to be distracted with angle changes, footwork patterns, and various stance shifts, the goal is to isolate and improve the hand strikes of the set. The student will again see the significance of using the point of origin as a reference between each strike.
    I'm all for isolating movements as a method to focus on specifics, especially for a beginner. But at least start them off with the correct stance to be punching from. The horse-stance punching method is just wrong. It's designed from the perspective of teaching a large room full of people, when the instructor does not have time to visit each student and correct their mechanics. Am I right in thinking that you disagree with the premise that 'punching from a horse-stance is not the most effective way to punch'?

    Quote Originally Posted by Seabrook
    Of course, one can move doing the Striking Set as well, as demonstrated nicely by Mr. Tatum.
    Why not teach this from the very beginning? Far more valuable imho. Nowhere in the training exercise did I see Mr Tatum strike from a horse-stance - he appeared to use a neutral-bow throughout.



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    Default Re: August 2006 - Set of the Month Striking Set 1

    Quote Originally Posted by JamesB View Post
    The reason that many traditional stylists hit harder is because they utilize correct body mechanics in their training, something that is entirely absent in striking-set #1 as described so far (and endorsed by some) in this thread. But it's got nothing to do with 'style'. Correct is correct no matter what you call it.



    I'm all for isolating movements as a method to focus on specifics, especially for a beginner. But at least start them off with the correct stance to be punching from. The horse-stance punching method is just wrong. It's designed from the perspective of teaching a large room full of people, when the instructor does not have time to visit each student and correct their mechanics. Am I right in thinking that you disagree with the premise that 'punching from a horse-stance is not the most effective way to punch'?



    Why not teach this from the very beginning? Far more valuable imho. Nowhere in the training exercise did I see Mr Tatum strike from a horse-stance - he appeared to use a neutral-bow throughout.


    Let me get this straight. The value of Striking Set from a horse is using it from other stances?

    The way you 'fix it,' is not do it. Much of what you need to teach can be learned in other ways, and the bulk of the set is pure crap - that some will love - until someone cracks them in the grill.
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