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Thread: April 2006 - Form of the Month - Long Form 1

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    Default April 2006 - Form of the Month - Long Form 1

    First side only

    OPENING:
    1. Attention Stance
    2. Bow.
    3. Signify. 4. Step your left foot to a meditative horse stance.


    1. Have your left foot step back toward 6 o'clock into a right neutral bow, facing 12 o'clock as you simultaneously execute a right hammering inward block.

    2. Pivot into a right forward bow toward 12 o'clock as you execute a left punch toward 12 o'clock.

    3. Slide your right foot into a right transitional cat stance while executing a right thrusting inward block. Complete your right step through by having your right foot plant back toward 6 o'clock into a left neutral bow. As you settle into your left neutral bow, execute a left thrusting inward block.

    4. Pivot into a left forward bow toward 12 o'clock as you execute a right punch to 12 o'clock.

    5. Cover (by moving your right foot toward 3 o'clock) into a left neutral bow facing 9 o'clock, while simultaneously executing a left vertical outward block.

    6. Pivot into a left forward bow toward 9 o'clock as you execute a right punch to 9 o'clock.

    7. Step your left foot back to 3 o'clock into a right neutral bow facing 9 o'clock, as you execute a right vertical outward block.

    8. Pivot into a right forward bow toward 9 o'clock as you execute a left punch to 9 o'clock.

    9. Cover (step right foot to 6 o'clock, look towards 3 o'clock) as you execute a left outward elbow. Immediately pivot in-place into a left neutral bow facing 3 o'clock, while simultaneously executing a left upward block.

    10. Pivot into a left forward bow toward 3 o'clock as you execute a right punch to 3 o'clock.

    11. Step your left foot back towards 9 o'clock into a right neutral bow facing 3 o'clock, as you execute a right upward block.

    12. Pivot into a right forward bow toward 3 o'clock as you execute a left punch to 3 o'clock.

    13. Cover (V-step- fall back into a cat stance, step your right foot to 6 o'clock) into a right neutral bow facing 6 o'clock, as you execute a right downward block.

    14. Pivot into a right forward bow toward 6 o'clock as you execute a left punch to 6 o'clock.

    15. Step your right foot back to 12 o'clock into a left neutral bow facing 6 o'clock as you execute a left downward block.

    16. Pivot into a left forward bow toward 6 o'clock as you execute a right punch to 6 o'clock.

    17. Pivot back to a left neutral bow facing 6 o'clock while simultaneously executing a left inward block,followed by a right inward block, followed by a left inward block.

    18. Step your left foot back to 12 o'clock into a right neutral bow, facing 6 o'clock as you execute a right inward block, followed by a left inward block, followed by a right inward block.

    19. Cover (by moving your left foot toward 3 o'clock) into a right neutral bow facing 9 o'clock as you execute a right outward block, followed by a left outward block followed by a right outward block.

    20. Step your right foot back to 3 o'clock into a left neutral bow facing 9 o'clock as you execute a left outward block followed by a right outward block followed by a left outward block.

    21. Cover (by moving your left foot toward 9 o'clock) into a right neutral bow facing 3 o'clock as you execute a right upward block followed by a left upward block followed by a right upward block.

    22. Step your right foots back to 9 o'clock into a left neutral bow facing 3 o'clock as you execute a left upward block followed by a right upward block follwoed by a left upward block.

    23. Cover (by moving your right foot to a side cat stance, then toward 6 o'clock) into a left neutral bow facing 12 o'clock as you execute a left downward block followed by a right downward block, followed by a left downward block.

    24. Step your left foot back to 6 o'clock into a right neutral bow facing 12 o'clock as you execute a right downward block followed by a left downward block followed by a right downward block.

    25. Step your left foot to 9 o'clock into a horse stance, facing 12 o'clock. This maneuver is simultaneously done it while executing a left inward downward block palm down, immediatley followed by a right inward downward block (palm down) followed by a left inward downward block (palm down).

    26. Cock your right hand high. Execute a right inside downward block (palm up) simultaneously with a left back elbow strike, followed immediately by a left inside downward block (palm up) simultaneously with a right back elbow strike followed by a right inside downward block (palm up) simultaneously with a left back elbow strike.

    27. Execute a left push-down block simultaneously with a right back elbow strike followed by a right push-down block simultaneously with a left back elbow strike followed by a left push-down block simultaneously with a right back elbow strike.

    28. Execute a right straight punch to 12 o'clock simultaneously with a left back elbow strike.

    29. Execute a left straight punch to 12 o'clock simultaneously with a right back elbow strike.

    30. Execute a right punch to 10:30 simultaneously with a left back elbow strike.

    31. Execute a left punch to 1:30 simultaneously with a right back elbow strike.

    32. Execute a right straight punch to 9 o'clock simultaneously with a left back elbow strike.

    33. Execute a left straight punch to 3 o'clock simultaneously with a right back elbow strike.

    34. Execute a right upper cut punch to 12 o'clock simultaneously with a right back elbow strike.

    35. Execute a left upper cut punch to 12 o'clock simultaneously with a left back elbow strike.

    36. Close with meditative horse stance.
    Quality outweighs quantity every time.

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    Default Re: April 2006 - Form of the Month - Long Form 1

    I add inward blocks between all my strikes.

    I mostly teach yellow belts right now and I go through this kata almost every class, calling out each move as we go.

    I think it's tremendous for teaching both stance transitions and the importance of covering up during stance changes.

    Between on stance and another, there is potentially time for a strike to land. Better to do a block in between to ensure protection.

    --Amy
    The New Kenpo Continuum Book is now accepting submissions for volume 2. Our fabulous, ever-changing website is Sacramento Kenpo Karate.
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    Default Re: April 2006 - Form of the Month - Long Form 1

    Quote Originally Posted by amylong
    I add inward blocks between all my strikes.

    I mostly teach yellow belts right now and I go through this kata almost every class, calling out each move as we go.

    I think it's tremendous for teaching both stance transitions and the importance of covering up during stance changes.

    Between on stance and another, there is potentially time for a strike to land. Better to do a block in between to ensure protection.

    --Amy
    are you talking about a double-factor block (e.g. right inward followed by left outward, etc.) ? If so, we do the same thing.

    Another slight difference in the way we teach this form is found in steps 17-24. Instead of a block with the rear hand, we do another forward-bow punch. For example, in step 17, instead of L. inward block, R. inward block, L. inward block; we do L. inward block, R. PUNCH (from a L. forward bow), L. Inward block. And so on for the rest of the form.
    The test: "Will this work so that I can use it instinctively in vital combat against an opponent who is determined to prevent me from doing so, and who is striving to eliminate me by fair means or foul?" ~ Col. Rex Applegate

    Matt K.

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    Default Re: April 2006 - Form of the Month - Long Form 1

    Quote Originally Posted by kenpotex
    are you talking about a double-factor block (e.g. right inward followed by left outward, etc.) ? If so, we do the same thing.

    Another slight difference in the way we teach this form is found in steps 17-24. Instead of a block with the rear hand, we do another forward-bow punch. For example, in step 17, instead of L. inward block, R. inward block, L. inward block; we do L. inward block, R. PUNCH (from a L. forward bow), L. Inward block. And so on for the rest of the form.
    Hi. Yes, that's what I mean. I have them make clear each block. I see people who sort of do the inward before the outward, but it's really more of a formality or a close-fisted parry essentially.

    I've never seen the punches intween the sets of three blocks. I've seen it done with the middle block being done in a forward bow though.

    --Amy
    The New Kenpo Continuum Book is now accepting submissions for volume 2. Our fabulous, ever-changing website is Sacramento Kenpo Karate.
    I'm a member of the Universal Life Church and the ULC Seminary. I'm also a Sacramento Wedding Minister and Disc Jockey
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    Default Re: April 2006 - Form of the Month - Long Form 1

    Here is a small quote from my latest book, American Kenpo Mastery: A Guide for Students and Instructors:

    In Long Form 1 students again retreat and block punches but now counter with a reverse punch while locking into a forward bow. This teaches student how to get power through the dimensional width zone. The cat stance is also initiated near the first opening sequence of moves. It is used simply to show how to move from a forward bow to a neutral bow. Long Form 1 is the first form to introduce hip rotation as well as a rear hand block. Note that the inside downward blocks (palm down) are just the reverse of an outside downward block, while the palm up inside downward blocks are merely inward blocks done on a vertical plane.
    I can do all things through Christ, who strengthens me.
    (Phillipians 4:13)


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    Default Re: April 2006 - Form of the Month - Long Form 1

    First, I must say I really enjoy these highlights each month of a form and/ or technique... very valuable!

    I just wanted to emphasize some elements I key on within Long Form 1 and compare them with elements other might emphasize...

    Move number "3", you manuever to a cat stance to show the transition stance and then you use the cat stance alot within Short 2.

    Move number "9", you execute a left outward elbow to show the reverse motion concept.

    Move number "13", you show that you can step forward with your block and strike. Then when you get to Short 2, most of your movements are stepping forward.

    The hand isolations at the end of the form as well are very important.

    Does anyone else key on other certain areas of the form specifically (taking in account that the all of the moves in the form are important)?

    Good journey.

    Respectfully,
    Joshua Ryer
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    Default Re: April 2006 - Form of the Month - Long Form 1

    Ours is pretty much the same however after the initial retreating step , for example step left to 7:30 as a left inward perry is thrown settle to a RNB as a R inward block is thrown, then a L pivot punch, etc... So we have a perry, block, punch.

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    Default Re: April 2006 - Form of the Month - Long Form 1

    heres one more idea I don't see taught as much is after the last downward block and punch combo, when we do our three blocks is Upper Body Rotation. The lower portion of the body stays in place so we isolate just our upperbody. If your weight is centered you should be able to swivel your body on an axis by using opposing forces. And its great on working on your core muscle group

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    Default Re: April 2006 - Form of the Month - Long Form 1

    Quote Originally Posted by True2Kenpo View Post
    Does anyone else key on other certain areas of the form specifically (taking in account that the all of the moves in the form are important)?

    Good journey.

    Respectfully,
    Joshua Ryer

    For our group, we:

    1. Don't chamber the hands. Blasphemy to some, LOL.
    2. Don't step into darkness. This was another thread, and I'd like to hear somebody's take on this subject. http://www.kenpotalk.com/forum/showt...5608#post35608
    3. Don't drag our feet when moving to a cat stance (or any other time). In fact, the foot doesn't move at all, rather engages to a ~70/30 front/back weight distribution where it is. This aligns the quadraceps to thrust the body back into the next step (the twist stance), rather than stepping.
    4. Do a different combination other than the typical punching isolations at the end.
    5. Do not step to rotate into a neutral bow at the beginning of each side, rather rotate from the natural standing position to a fortified position to then thrust to the neutral bow.
    6. Make contact with the vertical fist when hitting.

    Like Short One, I appreciate what this offers the student in terms of proper cover, among other things.

    Salute,

    Steven Brown
    UKF

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    Default Re: April 2006 - Form of the Month - Long Form 1

    Quote Originally Posted by bujuts View Post
    For our group, we:

    1. Don't chamber the hands. Blasphemy to some, LOL.


    Quote Originally Posted by bujuts View Post
    2. Don't step into darkness. This was another thread, and I'd like to hear somebody's take on this subject. http://www.kenpotalk.com/forum/showt...5608#post35608
    You made a very interesting point in that thread - that it is more efficient to 'front cover' rather than 'rear cover'. I'd wager that the resulting stance is stronger too. Definitely a good thing!

    Quote Originally Posted by bujuts View Post
    3. Don't drag our feet when moving to a cat stance (or any other time). In fact, the foot doesn't move at all, rather engages to a ~70/30 front/back weight distribution where it is. This aligns the quadraceps to thrust the body back into the next step (the twist stance), rather than stepping.
    Yes, we don't drag the feet either. The difference in stance stablility (and manouverability too) is profound. There was a thread on kenponet a few months back regarding dragging the feet in a 'push drag'. Quite a few just don't seem to 'get it' - I gave up arguing my point.

    I don't quite understand your description above - it sounds like your forward-stance (with the reverse-punch), has a 70-30 weight distribution rather than the (normal, I believe) 60-40?

    Quote Originally Posted by bujuts View Post
    4. Do a different combination other than the typical punching isolations at the end.
    I'd be interested to hear what this might be? Is this unique to UKF schools? Do you also do the 'blocking sets of three', and what stances would you utilize with these combos?

    Quote Originally Posted by bujuts View Post
    5. Do not step to rotate into a neutral bow at the beginning of each side, rather rotate from the natural standing position to a fortified position to then thrust to the neutral bow.
    So I think I got this: from standing, pivot the hips (+entire body, leaving the head facing forwards) to align the hips on the same plane that they would be in a neutral bow. Then elongate the stance by stepping out wide to make the final neutral-bow? Basically, a pivot+elongate? Sounds more efficient than the typical "rotate the body around the lead leg as you hurl the body awkwardly backwards into a stance" anyway... :-)

    Quote Originally Posted by bujuts View Post
    6. Make contact with the vertical fist when hitting.
    not sure I understand this - are you physically striking a target when performing the form? Or do you mean, you utilize a vertical fist rather than the standard flat-punch? (we use a 'diamond' punch in this form)

    cheers,
    James

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    Default Re: April 2006 - Form of the Month - Long Form 1

    Quote Originally Posted by JamesB View Post
    Yes, we don't drag the feet either. The difference in stance stablility (and manouverability too) is profound. There was a thread on kenponet a few months back regarding dragging the feet in a 'push drag'. Quite a few just don't seem to 'get it' - I gave up arguing my point.
    Mr. James, allways interested to get your take on things. SO, you don't drag the foot at all when going into a cat- does this mean that you just weight the trailing leg and leave the forward foot in place? What are the advantages to this? Sorry for asking here, but I don't go to KenpoNet, so I wouldn't have seen it there. And, you'd probably get a more intelligent discussion here.

    What about step throughs and kicks? These require the foot to move to/through "post". How do you do these maneuvers?And, of course, what about the push-drags?

    I was taught that the foot should just glide over the surface, not really a hard drag. But, still, it would be a draging movement.

    Dan C
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    Default Re: April 2006 - Form of the Month - Long Form 1

    I'm not answering for James in any regards (we've never had the pleasure of meeting, nor do I even know where he is from), but this is an interesting topic to me, and if you don't mind I'd like to throw in a few things for digestion, if that's alright And by all means James, please chime in from your point of view as well?

    Quote Originally Posted by thedan View Post
    SO, you don't drag the foot at all when going into a cat- does this mean that you just weight the trailing leg and leave the forward foot in place?
    The difference in the way our group does it is we actually load the front foot with additional weight, not subtract from it. My previous mention of a ~60/40 weight distribution is 60% on the front leg. The front leg doesn't move back at all, rather it orients self to 12:00 as the heel comes off the ground slightly. Like any stance, its not a stance, but a transition.

    Quote Originally Posted by thedan View Post
    What are the advantages to this? Sorry for asking here, but I don't go to KenpoNet, so I wouldn't have seen it there. And, you'd probably get a more intelligent discussion here.
    You're not missing alot not going to the KNet, LOL. But as far as this transition, we should consider two things. 1) Backwards motion (neutral bow, activated cat stance, moving back to the twist, then the neutral bow). The cat stance described above activates the major muscle groups of the front leg (i.e. the quads) to thrust the body backwards. If you examine the muscles involved in dragging the foot back to closer to the body, these are flexor muscles which are not only weaker but don't offer any kind of structural advantage. As a test of this, try slowly moving into a cat stance with someone applying substantial resistive force to your center from behind. 2) Kicking off of that front leg. By keeping the center of mass forward, you can commit your mass behind the kick and penetrate the dimension of depth. If the center of mass is over the back leg, the body lacks the structural alignment it offers, which is still in its neutral bow position. Again, from a cat stance, try slowly moving something with resistance forward using the ball of the foot (try it between groin and knee height). If the quadracep of that front leg is the only thing sustaining force, then that muscle group is isolated. Aligned as I have described above, the rear leg becomes a major player in delivering force to the target. Natural alignment is an interesting thing, I think. Ask someone to push a car, play tug of war, or have them move to lift something they think is going to be quite heavy. Watch their mechanics - the body aligns naturally to the way it was designed to work in terms of muscle groups and structure.

    Quote Originally Posted by thedan View Post
    ...And, of course, what about the push-drags?
    We just don't drag the foot is all. Friction retards motion. While there are a few instances where arm motions are accelerated if released from friction, this doesn't happen with the legs. I tried to find the old series of posts on dragging, but alas I couldn't find it. Was a decent one iffin' I 'memba right.

    Good topic, look forward to more.

    cheers,

    steven Brown
    UKF

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    Default Re: April 2006 - Form of the Month - Long Form 1

    I'm not answering for James in any regards (we've never had the pleasure of meeting, nor do I even know where he is from), but this is an interesting topic to me, and if you don't mind I'd like to throw in a few things for digestion, if that's alright And by all means James, please chime in from your point of view as well?

    Quote Originally Posted by thedan View Post
    SO, you don't drag the foot at all when going into a cat- does this mean that you just weight the trailing leg and leave the forward foot in place?
    The difference in the way our group does it is we actually load the front foot with additional weight, not subtract from it. My previous mention of a ~60/40 weight distribution is 60% on the front leg. The front leg doesn't move back at all, rather it orients self to 12:00 as the heel comes off the ground slightly. Like any stance, its not a stance, but a transition.

    Quote Originally Posted by thedan View Post
    What are the advantages to this? Sorry for asking here, but I don't go to KenpoNet, so I wouldn't have seen it there. And, you'd probably get a more intelligent discussion here.
    You're not missing alot not going to the KNet, LOL. But as far as this transition, we should consider two things. 1) Backwards motion (neutral bow, activated cat, stance, moving back to the twist, then the neutral bow). The cat stance described above activates the major muscle groups of the front leg (i.e. the quads) to thrust the body backwards. If you examine the muscles involved in dragging the foot back to closer to the body, these are flexor muscles which are not only weaker but don't offer any kind of structural advantage. As a test of this, try slowly moving into a cat stance with someone applying substantial resistive force to your center from behind. 2) Kicking off of that front leg. By keeping the center of mass forward, you can commit your mass behind the kick and penetrate the dimension of depth. If the center of mass is on the back leg, the body lacks the structural alignment that leg offers from its neutral bow orientation. Again, from a cat stance, try slowly moving something with resistance forward (try it between groin and knee height), this time using the ball of the front foot. If the quadracep of that front leg is the only thing sustaining force, then that muscle group is isolated. Aligned as I have described above, the rear leg becomes a major player in delivering force to the target.

    Quote Originally Posted by thedan View Post
    ...And, of course, what about the push-drags?
    We just don't drag the foot is all. Friction retards motion. While there are a few instances where arm motions are accelerated if released from friction, this doesn't happen with the legs. I tried to find the old series of posts on dragging, but alas I couldn't find it. Was a decent one iffin' I 'memba right.

    Good topic, look forward to more.

    cheers,

    steven Brown
    UKF

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    Default Re: April 2006 - Form of the Month - Long Form 1

    Mr. Brown, I can see some possible bennifits to the methods you describe, and some possible problems. I'll have to try this a little and get back. Thanks for the information, though, it is interesting.

    Dan C
    There are things that are worth knowing for their own sake, worth finding for the pure joy of discovery.

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    Default Re: April 2006 - Form of the Month - Long Form 1

    Well, I spent some quality time with the ambient gasses this morning, and I think you are right. Had some trouble initially, but was able to work it out. The differences are subtle, and I tended to overlook them while trying to prove or disprove the problem. First, you do weight the trailing foot, difference being how. You push off on the front to weight the back, instead of just rocking back. Correct? This seem similar to the Taiji method of filling one leg before moving the other.

    I thought kicks would be awkward, slow and weak. But the opposite is true. Actually seem to work better. Step through reverses and other maneuvers seem better too. One big advantage is that, as I understand Docs PAM (which is very little), your method of steping back works far better since the front foot is easily unweighted in the latter part of the move and, thus, the adjustment is easily and quickly done.

    This is all just preliminary. I havn't had time to work it that much. But so far, it seems to be working much better than I thought it would.

    Thanks for the input, guys.

    Dan C
    There are things that are worth knowing for their own sake, worth finding for the pure joy of discovery.

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    Default Re: April 2006 - Form of the Month - Long Form 1

    Quote Originally Posted by bujuts;from [URL
    http://www.kenpotalk.com/forum/showthread.php?p=35608#post35608]A[/url] litmus test I apply to all of my foot work is "will this transition work under resistance?" If not, I won't do it. To have continuous power, the legs must move from engagement to engagement, not engagement to balance then back to engagement. Mechanically speaking, balance is a state of continuous mechanical adjustment, and not appropriate for hard hitting violence raining down on me.
    This statement makes a lot of sense. It also helped me to adjust to get this method to work. Don't know how I missed that thread before...

    One other thing I've found in trying you method is that it is essential to initiate movement from the tantien. When trying it in isolation (turning the foot and weighting/pushing off the ball first) I had a tendency to rise a little in my stance /transitions. Then, when trying to move correctly, it felt awkward. I'm used to the pull of the drag in all the muscles, especially the tantien. Now I have to push. This is one of the subtleties I talked about earlier. Just have to work through these things.

    If any of this is incorrect, please don't be shy in correcting me. This is not me telling you what I know, but what I think I'm getting. So, if I'm wrong, by all means...

    Again, my thanks for sharing this info.

    Dan C
    There are things that are worth knowing for their own sake, worth finding for the pure joy of discovery.

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    Default Re: April 2006 - Form of the Month - Long Form 1

    Quote Originally Posted by thedan View Post
    One other thing I've found in trying you method is that it is essential to initiate movement from the tantien. When trying it in isolation (turning the foot and weighting/pushing off the ball first) I had a tendency to rise a little in my stance /transitions. Then, when trying to move correctly, it felt awkward. I'm used to the pull of the drag in all the muscles, especially the tantien. Now I have to push. This is one of the subtleties I talked about earlier. Just have to work through these things.

    If any of this is incorrect, please don't be shy in correcting me. This is not me telling you what I know, but what I think I'm getting. So, if I'm wrong, by all means...

    Again, my thanks for sharing this info.

    Dan C
    Dan, I certainly appreciate your attention on this matter, not to mention the fact that you actually put it to the test. Much appreciated.

    This transition, in addition to the forward transition of NB - Twist - NB, is platformed on the parameter of depth of the neutral bow. As I stated before, everyone seems to more or less agree on width (toe-heel alignment, conforming to the body's natural width), however there is a great deal of disparity in definitions of the NB's length, and largely undefined measurements of height. More on those later though, for now I bring up the subject of the NB depth measurement because it is critical for performing this transition effectively.

    I refer to the the natural process of simply walking. In walking, the extensor muscles of the calf (partially aided by the quadraceps) of the rear leg nearly expire by the time the center of mass is over the front foot. When the mass is over the front foot, the front leg it is capable of continuing the motion forward using the same flexor / extensor process as the previous leg. It extends out as the other foot gains ground in front, then expires as the mass is once again brought over that new front foot. And so on and so on. The transition is flawless and smooth, with no hiccups in the forward momentum generated.

    If we were to try slowly walking taking, say, 1.5 times our normal step length, we find ourselves having to lunge in order to get the mass over the front foot. The height varies, and the momentum becomes inconsistent. What is key to this smooth transition of the mass over one leg to another is the depth at which we step. Step too far, and your center of mass ends up behind the foot when it lands, and flexor groups in the hips and lower trunk must pull and work to contract the body until it is over the front leg for another round of propulsion.

    This depth translates directly to the neutral bow. In our group, we measure the depth of our stance as follows: using a right NB, rotate the right foot on the heel to 12:00. Rotate the left foot to 12:00 on the inside of the ball of the foot, and kneel straight down, facing 12:00. The center of the knee is aligned with the center of the heel on the 9:00 / 3:00 line. Some measure it by 1) front of the toe to rear of the heel, 2) a fist apart, or 3) my favorite ambiguity, destined for mistranslation, "a comfortable depth". Interestingly, this depth I have proposed turns out to be that very same depth of the natural gait (not a leasurely stroll with the Mrs., but a walk, like you've got a mile to cover and things to do).

    Back to our transition from the activated cat stance then. With the depth described above, you'll find that by the time the front expires from extension of the quadraceps and tibialis, the mass is well positioned over the rear foot, which is angled outward as part of the neutral bow. That rear foot can then continue the thrust - just like walking. When performing this exercise, you may have felt the need to contract from your center in order to stabilize the legs to the hips, and indeed such an adjustment will be felt as a disruption in the momentum, and in the heighth (which you felt).

    Truth is, the legs can make it all happen just by themselves. The body should be able deliver full powered stances while chatting on the cell phone or while muching on a handful of whoppers, mind completely off of kenpo. Its quick, effective, works against someone leaning into you (resistance) with absolutley no compromise of the erect spinal carriage, and brings all three power sources (backup mass, rotation, and gravitational engagement) into battery.

    But the real magic, I think, is when you apply this same principle moving forward: NB - Twist - NB. I'll save this for a follow up discussion if the thread leads that way, but to suffice it to say this forward transition is a physical power source few tap into.

    Hope that helps. Thanks again for the dialogue.

    Steven Brown
    Universal Kenpo Federation
    Phoenix, AZ.

    "Your fighting stance is your everyday stance. Your everyday stance is your fighting stance..." Miyamaoto Musashi

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    Default Re: April 2006 - Form of the Month - Long Form 1

    Quote Originally Posted by bujuts View Post
    This transition, in addition to the forward transition of NB - Twist - NB, is platformed on the parameter of depth of the neutral bow. ... When performing this exercise, you may have felt the need to contract from your center in order to stabilize the legs to the hips, and indeed such an adjustment will be felt as a disruption in the momentum, and in the heighth (which you felt). ...
    But the real magic, I think, is when you apply this same principle moving forward: NB - Twist - NB. I'll save this for a follow up discussion if the thread leads that way, but to suffice it to say this forward transition is a physical power source few tap into. ..."Your fighting stance is your everyday stance. Your everyday stance is your fighting stance..." Miyamaoto Musashi
    Correct again. I checked my neutral bow, using your method, and it was a little long. Not much, but, apparently enough. I shortened it and things are working a little better.

    Your method definately seems more alive, engaged, and sort of discourages getting stuck in the "photo op" stances we can tend toward. Maybe it's just because I'm not used to it, but I feel I need to keep moving once I start. I'm curiouse, do you find that after having done this a while?

    At any rate, I'll work some more on this and then probably pester you with more questions. Apreciate your input.

    Dan C
    There are things that are worth knowing for their own sake, worth finding for the pure joy of discovery.

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    Default Re: April 2006 - Form of the Month - Long Form 1

    Quote Originally Posted by thedan View Post
    Mr. James, allways interested to get your take on things. SO, you don't drag the foot at all when going into a cat- does this mean that you just weight the trailing leg and leave the forward foot in place? What are the advantages to this? Sorry for asking here, but I don't go to KenpoNet, so I wouldn't have seen it there. And, you'd probably get a more intelligent discussion here.
    Hi - we lightly lift+place the foot into cat rather than dragging along the floor. But we generally don't draw back into a cat either - rather, the rear foot shifts forwards to form the cat. The exception is long#1 where the popular version of the form requires drawing back into cat - so we are required to do the same. But we 'draw back' rather than 'drag back'

    Quote Originally Posted by thedan View Post
    What about step throughs and kicks? These require the foot to move to/through "post". How do you do these maneuvers?And, of course, what about the push-drags?
    My step-through goes like this: 1. pivot to transitional forward-bow. 2. step forwards to transitional-forward-bow (on the 'other side'). 3. Pivot to neutral. 4. PAM (rear foot if going forwards, front foot if moving backwards).

    A step-through-kick is much the same. Pivot to transitional forwards. Adjust the lead foot (I guess this is a PAM or 'post' as you call it). Do the kick. Plant + PAM rear foot.

    Quote Originally Posted by thedan View Post
    I was taught that the foot should just glide over the surface, not really a hard drag. But, still, it would be a draging movement.
    Dan C
    Since being introduced to concepts such as PAMing I have been instructed not to drag my feet along the floor (even lightly). The basic reasons given is that it retards movement and weakens the resulting body-structure during and after the movement. This is born out in tests at any rate.

    The push-drag/step-drag/drag-step are executed in such a way that the feet never actually drag the floor. Rather the term 'drag' is meant to describe the action of the entire leg dragging behind the body-unit as it is moving - and not to the action of the foot dragging (which doesn't in my case).

    So a step-drag is two specific foot movements - lift+place front foot, then lift+place the rear root. It's more of a 'step-step' but you got to call it something, right? A push-drag is similar to a step-drag, with the difference that the rear foot is used to propel the body forwards whilst the lead foot is still off the ground. The lead foot then plants first, followed by the rear foot. Again, the feet never drag the floor, and are lifted+placed specifically into place.

    dunno if this is at all clear or not :-)

    oh yeah and 'James' is just fine btw :-)
    cheers,
    James

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    Default Re: April 2006 - Form of the Month - Long Form 1

    Quote Originally Posted by JamesB View Post
    Hi - we lightly lift+place the foot into cat rather than dragging along the floor. But we generally don't draw back into a cat either - rather, the rear foot shifts forwards to form the cat. The exception is long#1 where the popular version of the form requires drawing back into cat - so we are required to do the same. But we 'draw back' rather than 'drag back'
    James, now that you say that, I think I remember you said it somewhere here before. Do you turn the front foot forward before steping up with the trailing foot, then lift the heel? Sounds similar to the TKD back stance, if you are familiar with that.

    I think I should clarify one thing- when I say "drag", it doesn't mean the foot has to contact the floor (though my first school did teach that). Rather, the internal muscular motion is such that you pull the foot back (or forward) in a manner similar to dragging it. Contrast this with bujuts' method of actively pushing off the lead foot to cat, which (as I understand from working his descriptions) does not come to full post or chamber. It cats back just a little and strikes with full muscular support and structural allignment. I've been kicking the dogs buisness out of everything at work all morning, and I think he may have some good points. I can also see how steping up might be structurally better than the rock back and pull I was taught. There are still some things about both methods I will have to work out before adopting them. By the way, I'm assuming that yours is not the same as the foot replacement front kicks we've all been taught, though it sounds similar.

    My step-through goes like this: 1. pivot to transitional forward-bow. 2. step forwards to transitional-forward-bow (on the 'other side'). 3. Pivot to neutral. 4. PAM (rear foot if going forwards, front foot if moving backwards).
    I like that better than the "slide the foot forward then pivot into position" as it maintains structural integrety better throughout the movement.

    A step-through-kick is much the same. Pivot to transitional forwards. Adjust the lead foot (I guess this is a PAM or 'post' as you call it). Do the kick. Plant + PAM rear foot.
    No, the PAM you do is a step, I believe, which realigns the pelvic and hip joints and presents the muscles in such a way as to restore structural integrety. Posting is bringing one foot close to the other in a transitional posture, such as chambering a kick or steping through, or a full cat.

    So a step-drag is two specific foot movements - lift+place front foot, then lift+place the rear root. It's more of a 'step-step' but you got to call it something, right? A push-drag is similar to a step-drag, with the difference that the rear foot is used to propel the body forwards whilst the lead foot is still off the ground. The lead foot then plants first, followed by the rear foot. Again, the feet never drag the floor, and are lifted+placed specifically into place.
    This sounds a little bit similar to bujuts method. He talks about his foot maneuvers being similar to walking and the rear foot pushing off the ball of the foot to propel you forward. I was taught to push off on the rear foot as well (don't see how you couldn't) but the foot did not turn forward first. We pushed off more on the inside edge of the trailing foot.

    Interesting discussion. Thanks.

    Dan C

    edit; by the way, I agree with both of you (I think we've discussed this before as well) about not chambering the hands. Why practice something you aren't going to do? And it is counterproductive when trying to structure your movements. My opinion, for what it's worth. DC
    Last edited by thedan; 11-18-2006 at 03:43 PM.
    There are things that are worth knowing for their own sake, worth finding for the pure joy of discovery.

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