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Thread: June 2019 TOM - Sword and Hammer

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    Default June 2019 TOM - Sword and Hammer


    Sword and Hammer:
    (FlankShoulder Grab)

    1. An attacker at 3 o'clock grabs your right shoulder with their left hand.

    2. As you pin his hand with your left hand, step to 3 o'clock with your rightfoot into a horse stance as you execute a right outward hand sword to yourattacker's throat.

    3. Follow directly with a right hammer fist to the attacker's groin. (Utilizemarriage of gravity with this strike. Sink with the strike.)




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    Default Re: June 2019 TOM - Sword and Hammer

    Quote Originally Posted by KirkS View Post
    Sword and Hammer:
    (FlankShoulder Grab)

    1. An attacker at 3 o'clock grabs your right shoulder with their left hand.

    2. As you pin his hand with your left hand, step to 3 o'clock with your rightfoot into a horse stance as you execute a right outward hand sword to yourattacker's throat.

    3. Follow directly with a right hammer fist to the attacker's groin. (Utilizemarriage of gravity with this strike. Sink with the strike.)

    So, first.. hello all... had a great seminar this weekend with a number of instructors and all in all had a great time... but I've been thinking...

    This format is interesting.. and we often go on discussions of minor changes of angle ect ect...

    Lets get away from what the technique is... and ask ourselves and others.. what does this technique teach? Instead of what is this technique... lets try.... Why is this technique?

    Thoughts?

    The bunbun
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    Default Re: June 2019 TOM - Sword and Hammer

    I'll start..

    First.. one thing that is always missed in peoples S&H is look.... someone grabs your shoulder.. trap that hand sure but for god sake look at who it is... don't kill grandma!!

    So.. S&H.. still yellow belt.. still teaching you to create distance.. concepts like obscure attacks with the hand sword (since we attack from point of Origin).. grab/regrab for control of the situation...


    this is where my read of S&H gets fuzzy.. from a beginning POV it makes sense.. we are still teaching stance, we are teaching concepts like creating distance, trapping hands... etc etc.. and that is fine... but as we advance, I believe we should revisit the base techniques and view them from a more advanced eye. Not just tack on extensions to base techniques but totally review... from stance, to expectation of secondary attack, etc...

    Thoughts?

    Bunny
    "Do you have any bactine? Some of this blood is mine."

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    Default Re: June 2019 TOM - Sword and Hammer

    Quote Originally Posted by MrBunny View Post
    I'll start..

    First.. one thing that is always missed in peoples S&H is look.... someone grabs your shoulder.. trap that hand sure but for god sake look at who it is... don't kill grandma!!

    So.. S&H.. still yellow belt.. still teaching you to create distance.. concepts like obscure attacks with the hand sword (since we attack from point of Origin).. grab/regrab for control of the situation...


    this is where my read of S&H gets fuzzy.. from a beginning POV it makes sense.. we are still teaching stance, we are teaching concepts like creating distance, trapping hands... etc etc.. and that is fine... but as we advance, I believe we should revisit the base techniques and view them from a more advanced eye. Not just tack on extensions to base techniques but totally review... from stance, to expectation of secondary attack, etc...

    Thoughts?

    Bunny
    Kinda how I think about the earlier techniques...there is more there than meets the eye on the first look.
    Tradition is not about the preservation of the ashes, but about keeping the flame alive

    Light travels faster than sound. This is why some people appear to be bright until you hear them speak

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    Default Re: June 2019 TOM - Sword and Hammer

    Quote Originally Posted by MrBunny View Post
    someone grabs your shoulder.. trap that hand sure but for god sake look at who it is... don't kill grandma!!
    We refer to this as a badge check. ��
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    Default Re: June 2019 TOM - Sword and Hammer

    I find this an odd technique. In fact, when I went through yellow belt material, this was not included. Later, the instructor added this, and two other 'optional' yellow belt techniques to the 10 he had on his chart. So, there resulted in 13 yellow belt techniques.

    Some of the ideas that make sense for a beginner ... is two zones and two weapons.

    You reference point of origin for the first hand sword, describing it as 'obscure attack'. In the vocabulary I am familiar with, 'obscure' means just at the edge of visibility. Which sort of contradicts the stressed idea of 'looking' at grandma. If you are looking, it is not obscure. Of course, you may mean something different.

    And while I am on a train of thought, I wonder about actually executing that right hand sword from a point of origin. My hand would be hanging loosely at my side, which would force an upward outward diagonal hand sword to the throat, which is not a very good angle for that strike. I wonder if I should cock that right hand, at my left pectoral muscle, when I execute the left hand grab and look. THEN ... I could step out into the horse stance, and execute a right outward horizontal hand sword, with a much better angle of incident on the target (striking at 90 degrees to the neck). This would emphasize the idea of 'settle with the shot'.

    Alright ... too much said.

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    Default Re: June 2019 TOM - Sword and Hammer

    Quote Originally Posted by michaeledward View Post
    I find this an odd technique. In fact, when I went through yellow belt material, this was not included. Later, the instructor added this, and two other 'optional' yellow belt techniques to the 10 he had on his chart. So, there resulted in 13 yellow belt techniques.

    Some of the ideas that make sense for a beginner ... is two zones and two weapons.

    You reference point of origin for the first hand sword, describing it as 'obscure attack'. In the vocabulary I am familiar with, 'obscure' means just at the edge of visibility. Which sort of contradicts the stressed idea of 'looking' at grandma. If you are looking, it is not obscure. Of course, you may mean something different.

    And while I am on a train of thought, I wonder about actually executing that right hand sword from a point of origin. My hand would be hanging loosely at my side, which would force an upward outward diagonal hand sword to the throat, which is not a very good angle for that strike. I wonder if I should cock that right hand, at my left pectoral muscle, when I execute the left hand grab and look. THEN ... I could step out into the horse stance, and execute a right outward horizontal hand sword, with a much better angle of incident on the target (striking at 90 degrees to the neck). This would emphasize the idea of 'settle with the shot'.

    Alright ... too much said.

    Not too much at all, By obscure I mean the attack to the bad persons throat.

    No I do not throw a knife edge as that would require really odd angle of the hand and exposing my ribs as my elbow rises. It does strike from point of origin with a ridge hand contouring up the attackers body to hit the throat/jaw line/ corner at the mastoid... etc etc.. depending on what is there. That motion is also very natural as it uses the typical swing of the arm. Course.. this all depends on the distance created in stepping to 3.. if too much gap I might just take that right into the attackers armpit and twist more into a clutching feathers scenario... but... coulda shoulda woulda....

    as for two weapons... thats in interesting point... are there techniques before this one where we use the same limb and two different weapons.. sword/hammer/claw/palm etc? I'm going through the list but cant think of one...

    Bunbun
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    Default Re: June 2019 TOM - Sword and Hammer

    You have to go back further with the history of the technique. This technique used to be a drill called "Attacking Circle" (still maintained as an orange belt technique in the Tracy system). The student would practice moving into the attacker on the "+" and "x" angles and then execute the chop and hammer. Yellow belt was created to be a short list of techniques that a student could learn quickly and get the belt quickly to hopefully keep them moving forward and keep as a student.

    The technique itself is problematic because you are chopping to the throat for a shoulder grab. There are a lot more factors in a reasonable self-defense situation that have to come into play for that response. That aside, here are some things that you can learn.

    1) Anchoring an attacking limb
    2) Working around a grab to still use your body weapons
    3) Contouring the attacker's body (depending on how you throw that first chop, you can make it an invisible strike to them)
    4) Going with the energy of an attack (again depending on how you train this, grab and pull and you add the momentum to the chop)
    5) Establishing your base with the grab (attacker hasn't pulled)
    6) How to rebound your strikes to flow
    7) How to use your strikes to set up for the next target
    8) Targeting vital points

    Probably a lot more, but those popped into my head.
    "For he is God's servant to do you good. But if you do wrong, be afraid, for he does not bear the sword for nothing. He is God's servant, an agent of wrath to bring punishment on the wrongdoer."

    Romans 13:4

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    Default Re: June 2019 TOM - Sword and Hammer

    Quote Originally Posted by punisher73 View Post
    1) Anchoring an attacking limb
    2) Working around a grab to still use your body weapons
    3) Contouring the attacker's body (depending on how you throw that first chop, you can make it an invisible strike to them)
    4) Going with the energy of an attack (again depending on how you train this, grab and pull and you add the momentum to the chop)
    5) Establishing your base with the grab (attacker hasn't pulled)
    6) How to rebound your strikes to flow
    7) How to use your strikes to set up for the next target
    8) Targeting vital points

    Probably a lot more, but those popped into my head.
    Out of curiosity, do you consider anchoring and trapping the same thing? This, or crossing talons I would describe as trapping.. Where Clutching feathers or lone kimono... I would call anchoring because of an additional wrist joint manipulation in anchoring.

    Thoughts?

    Bunny
    "Do you have any bactine? Some of this blood is mine."

    "Dear Die-ary, today I stuffed some dolls full of dead rats I put in the blender. I'm wondering if, maybe, there really is something wrong with me."

    -JTHM

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    Default Re: June 2019 TOM - Sword and Hammer

    Quote Originally Posted by KirkS View Post
    Sword and Hammer:
    (FlankShoulder Grab)

    1. An attacker at 3 o'clock grabs your right shoulder with their left hand.

    2. As you pin his hand with your left hand, step to 3 o'clock with your rightfoot into a horse stance as you execute a right outward hand sword to yourattacker's throat.

    3. Follow directly with a right hammer fist to the attacker's groin. (Utilizemarriage of gravity with this strike. Sink with the strike.)



    Something else that should really be mentioned is all of the "Extra Striking" that can go on; In "Sword and Hammer" specifically.

    I am a big believer in not just doing a technique effectively, but also in doing it ballistically. Every single contact should be ballistic - Every single contact should be a strike of some sort.

    The way I teach Intermediates and practice is as follows;

    1. As the grab lands, L.Foot steps across to 1 with a L.Pin to the hand, and LOOK. R. Hand does a Mid Level Check.
    *The Pin can be ballistic; as opposed to just coming down on the hand, Strike down on the fingers with the heel of your palm.
    *The Mid Level Check is a distance guaging hand and also since it is at mid level, it has less distance to travel to the target. It is also in case a punch is coming.
    *At this point, the "Obscure" nature of the rear grab and any strikes that the Threat is planning have more or less been accounted for. You can determine the situation before doing the technique.

    Continue the technique as written.

    2. R.Foot to 3 or 4 into a horse stance as you execute a right outward hand sword to your attacker's throat.
    *At this point you would be moving in directly down the attackers Center Line.
    *As the R.Hand Sword goes to strike, your elbow could buckle and hit the chest/Solar Plexus first, then the hand sword. This serves the purpose, again, of guaging distance, pushing the Threat back and messing with his balance, and also as "Covering" your face, just in case. Straight from Short Form 1, turning back into the upward block, the elbow lifts first as you look, then the block/strike.
    *At such close range you could also modify the Hand Sword into a Hammer Fist/Forearm to the face. The forearm done in the style of an Extended Outward Block.

    3. Follow directly with a R.Hammer Fist to the attacker's groin.
    *Micro Stances come into play here, because you are already on a Horse Stance, and wish to sink further into it with the strike. Ever so slightly readjust your stance to a R.Reverse Bow as your hand travels down to strike. Then on impact, readjust back into the Horse Stance while sinking into it, using Marriage of Gravity.
    *When the Hand impacts up high, as it drops down, drop your elbow down along the body and drive it into the Solar Plexus, during the R.Reverse Bow, then strike the groin in the sunken Horse Stance.
    *As you settle into the Horse Stance, your pelvis may be used to strike the opponent's centre of balance. Torque for the micro readjustment into the Horse Stance can also back up the strike to the groin.

    Micro Stances and Added Footwork/Points of Contact increase the power of the technique. It may seem like a lot, but practiced, it can happen just as easily as executing the written technique. The added strikes can happen naturally by accident anyway. The added strikes like elbows and heel Palms instead of trapping are minor but add so much more in Intermediate learning.

    All comments/advice/critique is welcome.
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    Default Re: June 2019 TOM - Sword and Hammer

    Quote Originally Posted by MrBunny View Post
    Out of curiosity, do you consider anchoring and trapping the same thing? This, or crossing talons I would describe as trapping.. Where Clutching feathers or lone kimono... I would call anchoring because of an additional wrist joint manipulation in anchoring.

    Thoughts?

    Bunny
    Sorry for the late response.

    For me, since I am not a kenpo student, the way we define them as, "anchoring" is where you pin the hand to your own body and "trapping" is more a general term for an immobilization of your attacker's limbs with your body. So, an anchor is a trap, but a trap is not necessarily an anchor.
    "For he is God's servant to do you good. But if you do wrong, be afraid, for he does not bear the sword for nothing. He is God's servant, an agent of wrath to bring punishment on the wrongdoer."

    Romans 13:4

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    Default Re: June 2019 TOM - Sword and Hammer

    Quote Originally Posted by bdparsons View Post
    we refer to this as a badge check. ��
    yeah, i like that. Somehow having to say, "sorry officer." won't cut it.
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    Default Re: June 2019 TOM - Sword and Hammer

    Quote Originally Posted by KirkS View Post
    Sword and Hammer:
    (FlankShoulder Grab)

    1. An attacker at 3 o'clock grabs your right shoulder with their left hand.

    2. As you pin his hand with your left hand, step to 3 o'clock with your rightfoot into a horse stance as you execute a right outward hand sword to yourattacker's throat.

    3. Follow directly with a right hammer fist to the attacker's groin. (Utilizemarriage of gravity with this strike. Sink with the strike.)



    This technique as written and presented by most is rife with problems, and basically has the potential to see the defender go to jail for a long time.
    "Nothing is more dangerous than the conscientiously ignorant, or the sincerely stupid." - Martin Luther King Jr.

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    Default Re: June 2019 TOM - Sword and Hammer

    All good analytical thoughts worthy of discussion. Many do not realize this is one of the newer techniques moved into the Yellow Chart. All your points are well taken, however I was always taught to begin from the attack, and why I created Psychology of Confrontation as the #1 factor to begin the examination process, and move forward from there to conclusion.

    This is also expressed, (although not termed) in Mr. Parker's original instructor notes. You have to understand the attacker's point of view first, what they are trying to do, their goal(s), the mechanisms they will employ, and minor variances that must be accounted for in any response. Here is where I would like to open up the discussions, as this is a very good example to work from. Any takers?
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    Default Re: June 2019 TOM - Sword and Hammer

    Quote Originally Posted by Doc View Post
    All good analytical thoughts worthy of discussion. Many do not realize this is one of the newer techniques moved into the Yellow Chart. All your points are well taken, however I was always taught to begin from the attack, and why I created Psychology of Confrontation as the #1 factor to begin the examination process, and move forward from there to conclusion.

    This is also expressed, (although not termed) in Mr. Parker's original instructor notes. You have to understand the attacker's point of view first, what they are trying to do, their goal(s), the mechanisms they will employ, and minor variances that must be accounted for in any response. Here is where I would like to open up the discussions, as this is a very good example to work from. Any takers?
    Go for it Doc
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    Default Re: June 2019 TOM - Sword and Hammer

    Quote Originally Posted by Doc View Post
    All good analytical thoughts worthy of discussion. Many do not realize this is one of the newer techniques moved into the Yellow Chart. All your points are well taken, however I was always taught to begin from the attack, and why I created Psychology of Confrontation as the #1 factor to begin the examination process, and move forward from there to conclusion.

    This is also expressed, (although not termed) in Mr. Parker's original instructor notes. You have to understand the attacker's point of view first, what they are trying to do, their goal(s), the mechanisms they will employ, and minor variances that must be accounted for in any response. Here is where I would like to open up the discussions, as this is a very good example to work from. Any takers?
    How new?

    I've always looked at this attack as the guy is trying to post me in place with the grab so he can swing away with his other hand. Everyone freaks about the chop to the throat but, does it have to be that target..couldn't it be a chop to the nose or mouth as you step in??
    Tradition is not about the preservation of the ashes, but about keeping the flame alive

    Light travels faster than sound. This is why some people appear to be bright until you hear them speak

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    ~George Orwell
    Excellence is to do a common thing in an uncommon way." Booker T. Washington


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    Default Re: June 2019 TOM - Sword and Hammer

    Quote Originally Posted by KirkS View Post

    How new?
    Some of the "original" Yellow techniques were inconsistent with the basics and the skill level present at White Belt, so several were swapped out for those most are familiar with. Others like "Grasp of Death" actually replaced the original "Pincher." In this case the technique remained essentially the same but the emphasis on execution in the original was on attacking a nerve on the back of the knee joint with a "pinch." This occurred in the '60s when Mr. Parker began the true codification process that laid the foundation for the modern Ed Parker Kenpo Karate Curriculum.

    I've always looked at this attack as the guy is trying to post me in place with the grab so he can swing away with his other hand.
    Good thoughts for sure. Clearly as a part of the attack, the initial grab is to intimidate and control, with a possible right hand strike follow up. How soon or if the secondary attacked is launched would be predicated on how your reaction to the grab is perceived. Consider initially, they may grab and shove you off balance to your left, or they may grab and then pull you to your right off balance. Lastly, they may do both as a heightened intimidation "shaking" tactic while talking to you with a right punch or strike in reserve based on your reactions.

    These type of intimidation driven attacks are some of the hardest to defend because of the unique mechanisms needed to maintain your balance and structure. There is also the psychological impact of someone invading your personal space physically, with the additional issue of the attacker's feeling of superiority over you. Consider when a man has even a small amount of respect for another man, he won't place their hands on you and will maintain a healthy distance, even as they attempt to intimidate by talking (bumpin gums) to you. If he perceives no physical threat from you, he will approach you in this manner which raises their level of aggressiveness and confidence.

    Everyone freaks about the chop to the throat but, does it have to be that target..couldn't it be a chop to the nose or mouth as you step in??
    I agree, but that is actually getting ahead. We have to examine the immediate reaction to the grab, and what happens after that. I recall Michaeledward and I discussing the Yellow techniques about 15 years ago over on MartialTalk. Always good thoughts and insightful.
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    Default Re: June 2019 TOM - Sword and Hammer

    Quote Originally Posted by michaeledward View Post
    I find this an odd technique. In fact, when I went through yellow belt material, this was not included. Later, the instructor added this, and two other 'optional' yellow belt techniques to the 10 he had on his chart. So, there resulted in 13 yellow belt techniques.

    Some of the ideas that make sense for a beginner ... is two zones and two weapons.

    You reference point of origin for the first hand sword, describing it as 'obscure attack'. In the vocabulary I am familiar with, 'obscure' means just at the edge of visibility. Which sort of contradicts the stressed idea of 'looking' at grandma. If you are looking, it is not obscure. Of course, you may mean something different.

    And while I am on a train of thought, I wonder about actually executing that right hand sword from a point of origin. My hand would be hanging loosely at my side, which would force an upward outward diagonal hand sword to the throat, which is not a very good angle for that strike. I wonder if I should cock that right hand, at my left pectoral muscle, when I execute the left hand grab and look. THEN ... I could step out into the horse stance, and execute a right outward horizontal hand sword, with a much better angle of incident on the target (striking at 90 degrees to the neck). This would emphasize the idea of 'settle with the shot'.

    Alright ... too much said.
    Good thoughts, but technically you hand will not be hanging to your side. But let's get through the earlier stuff first.
    "Nothing is more dangerous than the conscientiously ignorant, or the sincerely stupid." - Martin Luther King Jr.

    "Knowledge speaks but wisdom listens." - Ed Parker Sr.

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    Default Re: June 2019 TOM - Sword and Hammer

    Quote Originally Posted by MKS View Post
    Something else that should really be mentioned is all of the "Extra Striking" that can go on; In "Sword and Hammer" specifically.

    I am a big believer in not just doing a technique effectively, but also in doing it ballistically. Every single contact should be ballistic - Every single contact should be a strike of some sort.

    The way I teach Intermediates and practice is as follows;

    1. As the grab lands, L.Foot steps across to 1 with a L.Pin to the hand, and LOOK. R. Hand does a Mid Level Check.
    *The Pin can be ballistic; as opposed to just coming down on the hand, Strike down on the fingers with the heel of your palm.
    *The Mid Level Check is a distance guaging hand and also since it is at mid level, it has less distance to travel to the target. It is also in case a punch is coming.
    *At this point, the "Obscure" nature of the rear grab and any strikes that the Threat is planning have more or less been accounted for. You can determine the situation before doing the technique.

    Continue the technique as written.

    2. R.Foot to 3 or 4 into a horse stance as you execute a right outward hand sword to your attacker's throat.
    *At this point you would be moving in directly down the attackers Center Line.
    *As the R.Hand Sword goes to strike, your elbow could buckle and hit the chest/Solar Plexus first, then the hand sword. This serves the purpose, again, of guaging distance, pushing the Threat back and messing with his balance, and also as "Covering" your face, just in case. Straight from Short Form 1, turning back into the upward block, the elbow lifts first as you look, then the block/strike.
    *At such close range you could also modify the Hand Sword into a Hammer Fist/Forearm to the face. The forearm done in the style of an Extended Outward Block.

    3. Follow directly with a R.Hammer Fist to the attacker's groin.
    *Micro Stances come into play here, because you are already on a Horse Stance, and wish to sink further into it with the strike. Ever so slightly readjust your stance to a R.Reverse Bow as your hand travels down to strike. Then on impact, readjust back into the Horse Stance while sinking into it, using Marriage of Gravity.
    *When the Hand impacts up high, as it drops down, drop your elbow down along the body and drive it into the Solar Plexus, during the R.Reverse Bow, then strike the groin in the sunken Horse Stance.
    *As you settle into the Horse Stance, your pelvis may be used to strike the opponent's centre of balance. Torque for the micro readjustment into the Horse Stance can also back up the strike to the groin.

    Micro Stances and Added Footwork/Points of Contact increase the power of the technique. It may seem like a lot, but practiced, it can happen just as easily as executing the written technique. The added strikes can happen naturally by accident anyway. The added strikes like elbows and heel Palms instead of trapping are minor but add so much more in Intermediate learning.

    All comments/advice/critique is welcome.
    All of these are on face, good ideas but do not take into account elements of the attack that can negate all of those responses. One step at a time. Right now we're on the grab and its impact.
    "Nothing is more dangerous than the conscientiously ignorant, or the sincerely stupid." - Martin Luther King Jr.

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    Default Re: June 2019 TOM - Sword and Hammer

    Quote Originally Posted by Doc View Post
    All of these are on face, good ideas but do not take into account elements of the attack that can negate all of those responses. One step at a time. Right now we're on the grab and its impact.
    Fun thing bout this is the multitude of variables. So lets first look at why someone might grab your shoulder.

    Non-threatinign
    *old friend recognizing you.
    *someone stopping you from impending accident.
    *mistaken identity
    *screwing around
    *asking ones pardon (you are in the way)

    Granted, these would likely be a lighter hand or accompanied with some verbal clue. "Watchout" "pardon me" etc... however in an environment where verbal is not possible (concert) we have to rely on the nature of the grab and quick visual recognition.

    Aggressive.

    *Grab punch near simultaneous.
    *grab back
    *grab foraward
    *grab shake
    *grab side

    In the grab punch you are in all seriousness not likely to know it's coming and odds are you are going to take the hit. With luck they probably don't know how to hit ... but it still sucks.
    WE also need to take into account environment for each one, heavy crowd, out in the open etc... it changes things.
    The others... we can pick apart individually if you like...



    Doc?

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  33. The Following User Says Thank You to MrBunny For This Useful Post:

    KirkS (06-19-2019)

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