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Thread: January 2006 Tracy Technique - Sumo

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    Default January 2006 Tracy Technique - Sumo

    What does the technique Sumo teach us. What are the strong points of this technique, what are the weak points.

    Does anyone have a good written breakdown of this technique?
    Quality outweighs quantity every time.

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    Default Re: January 2006 Tracy Technique - Sumo

    Quote Originally Posted by Rob Broad
    What does the technique Sumo teach us. What are the strong points of this technique, what are the weak points.

    Does anyone have a good written breakdown of this technique?
    The elbow/hammerfist/kick combination, in my opinion, is the kenpo that is being taught within Sumo. The rest of Sumo is simply "how to get there."

    Basically, it is the first technique that utilizes a combination of strikes that are sequenced based on how the opponent will react to being hit, which, in a nutshell, pretty well describes kenpo.

    As for it's weak points, I will paraphrase GM Tracy: "This is a complicated technique to perform given the nature of the attack, and there are better, more efficient solutions. But Sumo teaches the nature of kenpo movement.

    I can go with that because I see the techniques as tools that teach the art, not necessarily solutions to physical encounters that are written in stone.

    Aside from that, given it's placement in the system, it teaches many "firsts," such as the use of the low horse, the cat stance transition, the vertical elbow, etc...
    Dave

    "I consider that the spiritual life is the life of man's real self, the life of that interior self whose flame is so often allowed to be smothered under the ashes of anxiety and futile concern." - Thomas Merton


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    Default Re: January 2006 Tracy Technique - Sumo

    I remember back in the day, before the Yellow Belt curriculum was introduced, thatthis was the 2nd technique taughtin the system. Taking that into context it taught a lot of different basics, and introduced some a lot of neat ideas. Including those mentioned earlier it also introduced us to the cross and cover, driving the elbows to remove his hands, the spear hands, and ofcourse that classic forearm/elbow, hammerfist & Kick combo.

    Unfortunately this is a manula I no longer have or I would type out teh technique and teh accompnaying sheet of everything it taught. If anyone else could do so it would be greatly appreciated.
    Quality outweighs quantity every time.

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    Default Re: January 2006 Tracy Technique - Sumo

    Sumo teaches some concepts and lessons. I teach it for a two hand nerve wheel throw,i.e. grab the intercostal nerves, turn the wheel, and bow out ala Reaching for the Moon. Sumo teaches us to stabilize into the horse, use the elbows to strike the radial nerves (an anatomical lesson in itself), the double inverted spear hand to the lower airway (a whole nuther lesson) penetrating and controlling the centerline with an vertical elbow strike to the solar plexus/xyphoid process (nuther anatomical lesson), hammering to the testicles in an upward manner (which is really the target), rear kick to the torso (kenpo kicking strategy revealed, i.e. bring him low in order to kick him high), the front crossover to catch and absorb the returning energy, and then two ways to cover out and why we cover out on this tech and not on others. --I teach the intercostal nerve wheel throw in the Tiger and Crane. The counter to Sumo is also in there.

    Just some of my ideas.

    Jim

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    Default Re: January 2006 Tracy Technique - Sumo

    Quote Originally Posted by Jim Hanna
    Sumo teaches some concepts and lessons. I teach it for a two hand nerve wheel throw,i.e. grab the intercostal nerves, turn the wheel, and bow out ala Reaching for the Moon. Sumo teaches us to stabilize into the horse, use the elbows to strike the radial nerves (an anatomical lesson in itself), the double inverted spear hand to the lower airway (a whole nuther lesson) penetrating and controlling the centerline with an vertical elbow strike to the solar plexus/xyphoid process (nuther anatomical lesson), hammering to the testicles in an upward manner (which is really the target), rear kick to the torso (kenpo kicking strategy revealed, i.e. bring him low in order to kick him high), the front crossover to catch and absorb the returning energy, and then two ways to cover out and why we cover out on this tech and not on others. --I teach the intercostal nerve wheel throw in the Tiger and Crane. The counter to Sumo is also in there.

    Just some of my ideas.

    Jim
    Those are all great points.
    Quality outweighs quantity every time.

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    Default Re: January 2006 Tracy Technique - Sumo

    Quote Originally Posted by Jim Hanna
    Sumo teaches some concepts and lessons. I teach it for a two hand nerve wheel throw,i.e. grab the intercostal nerves, turn the wheel, and bow out ala Reaching for the Moon. Sumo teaches us to stabilize into the horse, use the elbows to strike the radial nerves (an anatomical lesson in itself), the double inverted spear hand to the lower airway (a whole nuther lesson) penetrating and controlling the centerline with an vertical elbow strike to the solar plexus/xyphoid process (nuther anatomical lesson), hammering to the testicles in an upward manner (which is really the target), rear kick to the torso (kenpo kicking strategy revealed, i.e. bring him low in order to kick him high), the front crossover to catch and absorb the returning energy, and then two ways to cover out and why we cover out on this tech and not on others. --I teach the intercostal nerve wheel throw in the Tiger and Crane. The counter to Sumo is also in there.

    Just some of my ideas.

    Jim

    I also take the Sumo technique as ideal for a two hand lapel grab where Kimono Grab is not appropiate (opponents grab is in the pull phase). Sumo is a power focused response using one's mass weight coupled with hard hitting strikes.


    Dave Simmons

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    Default Re: January 2006 Tracy Technique - Sumo

    Since the adoption of Yellow Belt Sumo has lost some of it's training purpose but is still good in those areas as a reminder of the princples and is a good way to reenforce the princples used in Kenpo.

    Originally Sumo was the first techniques taught. The principles taught in Sumo are:

    1> It introduced the square horse as used in self defense techniques.
    2> It introduced the point of the elbows as a striking weapon.
    3> It allows you to give a detailed lesson on the three nerves of the arm (Radial, Ulna, Medial)
    4> It introduced the fingertips as a striking weapon
    5> It allows you to give a detailed lesson on strikes to the throat and neck (Wind pipe and trachea, Carotid artery, The nerve complex, and The Neck muscle) and the results of attacking those areas
    6> It introduced the Cat Stance as a transitional movement
    7> It Introduces the Vertical forearm as a striking weapon
    8> It Introduces the concept of control of the center line
    9> It introduces the targets of the body available when you use a vertical forearm
    10> It introduces the use of the cover hand
    11> It introduces the concept of distance when you use the forearm
    12> It introduces penetration and control of the center line
    13> It introduces the use of the soft bow; and allows you to show the differences between the hard bow stance, the soft bow stance, and the full bow stance.
    14> It introduces the pivot of the body and the use of CW and CCW as teaching guides
    15> It introduced the groin as a target
    16> It introduces the Hammerfist as a striking weapon
    17> It introduced the back kick as a kicking weapon
    18> It allows you to explain and demonstrate the two methods of covering out after the back kick

    Since most of the principles are now also taught in Yellow Belt Sumo has lost some of its training purposes. However it is a great technique because it still has more training princples in it than just about any other technique.

    Besides being a very good technique in its own right Sumo was/is one of the best training aides in the system.
    Pat Munk, Judan
    Kenpo Karate

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    Default Re: January 2006 Tracy Technique - Sumo

    Thank you for postingthe info on Sumo.
    Quality outweighs quantity every time.

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    Default Re: January 2006 Tracy Technique - Sumo

    Any more insights about this technique?
    Quality outweighs quantity every time.

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    Default Re: January 2006 Tracy Technique - Sumo

    Quote Originally Posted by Rob Broad
    Any more insights about this technique?
    I like inserting a front kick to the groin right before the elbow. I also like having the students do the elbow as either an uppercut to the body, a forearm to the chest, a pointed elbow to the solar plexus, or a vertical elbow to the chin.

    Also, it is a great place to talk about economy of motion during the transition from the hammer to the kick. Most tend to drop into the hammerfist with the weight on both legs evenly, having then to adjust to fire the kick. If the weight transition is made during the transition from the elbow to the hammerfist (which is actually the correct way to do the soft bow, like a rear cat stance) then the kick can be fired immediately without another adjustment. If that lesson can be learned here, it sure saves alot of trouble down the road!
    Dave

    "I consider that the spiritual life is the life of man's real self, the life of that interior self whose flame is so often allowed to be smothered under the ashes of anxiety and futile concern." - Thomas Merton


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    Default Re: January 2006 Tracy Technique - Sumo

    Quote Originally Posted by Kenpodave
    I like inserting a front kick to the groin right before the elbow. I also like having the students do the elbow as either an uppercut to the body, a forearm to the chest, a pointed elbow to the solar plexus, or a vertical elbow to the chin.

    Also, it is a great place to talk about economy of motion during the transition from the hammer to the kick. Most tend to drop into the hammerfist with the weight on both legs evenly, having then to adjust to fire the kick. If the weight transition is made during the transition from the elbow to the hammerfist (which is actually the correct way to do the soft bow, like a rear cat stance) then the kick can be fired immediately without another adjustment. If that lesson can be learned here, it sure saves alot of trouble down the road!
    Great points. Anybody else?
    Quality outweighs quantity every time.

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    Default Re: January 2006 Tracy Technique - Sumo

    Bear with me folks, my goal has been to equate the system I'm in with other kenpo systems. One thing that will help me here is that we're an offshoot of Tracy kenpo.

    In regards to Sumo, it doesn't appear in our system until you're a green belt going for 3rd degree brown, and I believe it's the advanced version. A description of "A" variation:

    Double chops to the throat, with hands crossed at the wrist.

    Step right into horse stance while executing double downward blocks.

    Left hand grabs left wrist, right hand rigid claw to the eyes.

    Cross step left with right foot into horse stance (now facing the opposite direction), executing a right hammerfist to attackers elbow while pulling up on the wrist with the left hand.

    Hold attackers head down with right hand while doing a heel strike to the head.

    "B" variation is somewhat different with the final strike being a fading knee/chicken kick to the head.

    Are we in the same ballpark?

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    Default Re: January 2006 Tracy Technique - Sumo

    Quote Originally Posted by jdinca
    Bear with me folks, my goal has been to equate the system I'm in with other kenpo systems. One thing that will help me here is that we're an offshoot of Tracy kenpo.

    In regards to Sumo, it doesn't appear in our system until you're a green belt going for 3rd degree brown, and I believe it's the advanced version. A description of "A" variation:

    Double chops to the throat, with hands crossed at the wrist.

    Step right into horse stance while executing double downward blocks.

    Left hand grabs left wrist, right hand rigid claw to the eyes.

    Cross step left with right foot into horse stance (now facing the opposite direction), executing a right hammerfist to attackers elbow while pulling up on the wrist with the left hand.

    Hold attackers head down with right hand while doing a heel strike to the head.

    "B" variation is somewhat different with the final strike being a fading knee/chicken kick to the head.

    Are we in the same ballpark?
    same ball park???

    maybe but the technique you described vs the technique in the tracy's system is like compairing football with baseball.

    But it is a good sounding technique.
    Pat Munk, Judan
    Kenpo Karate

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    Default Re: January 2006 Tracy Technique - Sumo

    Quote Originally Posted by jdinca
    Bear with me folks, my goal has been to equate the system I'm in with other kenpo systems. One thing that will help me here is that we're an offshoot of Tracy kenpo.

    In regards to Sumo, it doesn't appear in our system until you're a green belt going for 3rd degree brown, and I believe it's the advanced version. A description of "A" variation:

    Double chops to the throat, with hands crossed at the wrist.

    Step right into horse stance while executing double downward blocks.

    Left hand grabs left wrist, right hand rigid claw to the eyes.

    Cross step left with right foot into horse stance (now facing the opposite direction), executing a right hammerfist to attackers elbow while pulling up on the wrist with the left hand.

    Hold attackers head down with right hand while doing a heel strike to the head.

    "B" variation is somewhat different with the final strike being a fading knee/chicken kick to the head.

    Are we in the same ballpark?
    Tha is definitely not sumo
    Quality outweighs quantity every time.

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    Default Re: January 2006 Tracy Technique - Sumo

    Quote Originally Posted by Rob Broad
    Tha is definitely not sumo
    Sigh...

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    Default Re: January 2006 Tracy Technique - Sumo

    I thought you had the tracy videos?

    Here's the way I learnt it.

    Sumo- (Front- Two Hand Low Grab)

    1. Step your right foot to 3 o'clock into a horse stance, as you circle your arms and drive the elbows into your attacker's wrists.

    2. Execute a double spear hand strike to your attacker's throat.

    3. Pull your right foot to 12 o'clock into a cat stance.

    4. Step your right foot to 12 o'clock as you execute a right vertical forearm strike to your attacker's chin.

    5. Pivot 180 degrees into a soft bow as you execute a right hammerfist to your attacker's groin.

    6. Execute a rear kick to your attacker.

    7. Land and cross out.

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    Default Re: January 2006 Tracy Technique - Sumo

    Quote Originally Posted by SilentWar View Post
    I thought you had the tracy videos?

    Here's the way I learnt it.

    Sumo- (Front- Two Hand Low Grab)

    1. Step your right foot to 3 o'clock into a horse stance, as you circle your arms and drive the elbows into your attacker's wrists.

    2. Execute a double spear hand strike to your attacker's throat.

    3. Pull your right foot to 12 o'clock into a cat stance.

    4. Step your right foot to 12 o'clock as you execute a right vertical forearm strike to your attacker's chin.

    5. Pivot 180 degrees into a soft bow as you execute a right hammerfist to your attacker's groin.

    6. Execute a rear kick to your attacker.

    7. Land and cross out.
    That is the way I learned this tech as well.
    Quality outweighs quantity every time.

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    Default Re: January 2006 Tracy Technique - Sumo

    Quote Originally Posted by SilentWar View Post
    I thought you had the tracy videos?

    Here's the way I learnt it.

    Sumo- (Front- Two Hand Low Grab)

    1. Step your right foot to 3 o'clock into a horse stance, as you circle your arms and drive the elbows into your attacker's wrists.

    2. Execute a double spear hand strike to your attacker's throat.

    3. Pull your right foot to 12 o'clock into a cat stance.

    4. Step your right foot to 12 o'clock as you execute a right vertical forearm strike to your attacker's chin.

    5. Pivot 180 degrees into a soft bow as you execute a right hammerfist to your attacker's groin.

    6. Execute a rear kick to your attacker.

    7. Land and cross out.
    Yep, this is Sumo.
    Dave

    "I consider that the spiritual life is the life of man's real self, the life of that interior self whose flame is so often allowed to be smothered under the ashes of anxiety and futile concern." - Thomas Merton


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    Default Re: January 2006 Tracy Technique - Sumo

    Quote Originally Posted by Kenpodave View Post
    I like inserting a front kick to the groin right before the elbow. I also like having the students do the elbow as either an uppercut to the body, a forearm to the chest, a pointed elbow to the solar plexus, or a vertical elbow to the chin.

    Also, it is a great place to talk about economy of motion during the transition from the hammer to the kick. Most tend to drop into the hammerfist with the weight on both legs evenly, having then to adjust to fire the kick. If the weight transition is made during the transition from the elbow to the hammerfist (which is actually the correct way to do the soft bow, like a rear cat stance) then the kick can be fired immediately without another adjustment. If that lesson can be learned here, it sure saves alot of trouble down the road!
    I prefer the pointed elbow to the solar plexus but I also teach it with the other options as you have described. To me, the beauty of doing it that way is that by aligning the forearm with the attacker's centerline, you enhance your chance of executing the pointed elbow to the solar plexus. Otherwise, it can be difficult to locate/strike.

    Jim

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    Thumbs up Re: January 2006 Tracy Technique - Sumo

    you know what i see here, everyone is "grafting" and maybe doing some
    "inserts" and thats good i have to tell you, that it has been a long time since i did this tecq, but its all good, btw i can remember after doing the two
    spear hands, i would throw a left palm hand to the right side of the face and then go right into the elbow and the groin strike, but thats me
    " Resolve to be tender with the young,compassionate with the aged,sympathetic with the striving,tolerant with the weak and wrong..... Because sometime in your life you will have been all of these"

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