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Thread: Knee of Vengeance & Fang Of The Cobra

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    Default Knee of Vengeance & Fang Of The Cobra

    What are the strong points and weaknesses of these two techniques. For the instructors do you teach them in the same lesson?
    Quality outweighs quantity every time.

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    Jim Hanna is offline
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    Default Re: Knee of Vengeance & Fang Of The Cobra

    Both are pretty simple and sound self defense techniques. I give a whole lesson concerning intimidation, etc for a front two hand lapel grab. Knee of Vengeance works well for a static grab of intimidation or a pulling grab but not a shoving/pushing grab. It also would be considered an illegal technique in PA because the grab is a simply summary offense and the response could easily be considered aggravated assault.

    Fang of the Cobra works well for a static front choke, a pulling front choke and a pushing front choke. It, on the surface, is not an illegal response because a front choke can be lethal. The good news is that I've run into few men who really know how to set the choke properly.

    The two techniques are fairly interchangable.

    Jim

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    Default Re: Knee of Vengeance & Fang Of The Cobra

    Quote Originally Posted by Jim Hanna
    Both are pretty simple and sound self defense techniques. I give a whole lesson concerning intimidation, etc for a front two hand lapel grab. Knee of Vengeance works well for a static grab of intimidation or a pulling grab but not a shoving/pushing grab. It also would be considered an illegal technique in PA because the grab is a simply summary offense and the response could easily be considered aggravated assault.

    Fang of the Cobra works well for a static front choke, a pulling front choke and a pushing front choke. It, on the surface, is not an illegal response because a front choke can be lethal. The good news is that I've run into few men who really know how to set the choke properly.

    The two techniques are fairly interchangable.

    Jim
    With more UFC wannabes these days could the lapel grab be considered an attempted choke?

    What principles do these techniques teach?
    Quality outweighs quantity every time.

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    Default Re: Knee of Vengeance & Fang Of The Cobra

    I don't approach my kenpo training and teaching from that approach. I view what I do as more tactical in nature so I do not concern myself with analyzing principals or motion. Nor do I concern myself too much with worrying what I would do if attacked by Dan Inosanto armed with a knife, or Randy Couture trying to ground me.

    Oftentimes, in my experience, a person will grab someone's shirt. He is looking for fear. If he sees it, the assault escalates. However, if he fails to see it, or sees someone calmly looking back into his eyes with bad intent, then the problem resolves itself.

    In regard to a front choke: I've had black belts from other systems step into my dojo and I have allowed them to choke me. They burn out because they can't set a simple two hand front choke properly. I really enjoy the look on their faces when, after a few seconds, they come to understand that their choke is failing and that I've yet to even try an escape and counter.

    Lastly, in my experience, it is by great preponderance, that women get choked from the front and by men that they know.

    Salute,
    Jim

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    Default Re: Knee of Vengeance & Fang Of The Cobra

    I think the threat of UFC wannabe's is very real. The popularity of UFC is evidenced by its syndicated show on Spike TV. If you find yourself in a situation requiring self defense you should consider that your oppenent may try to mimic what they saw on TV or that they may have gone as far as joining one of these new "fight clubs" that are springing up in gyms all over the U.S. where the participants "train" this "style" of fighting.

    As far as allowing someone to choke me.....ain't gonna happen. Forget a "stare down." They'll be just as intimidated once they regain consiousness. LOL. "He who hesitates, meditates in a horizontal position" SGM Parker
    Know what I mean?

    If and when someone is aggressively grabbing you, there will be force behind it. Therefore it is important to understand "motion." If they intend you harm they will not gingerly take up your lapels. No, there will likely be some force behind it. Trained to defend grabs/chokes with this mind, one will not be taken off gaurd if faced with this type scenario. If not prepared, you could lose your balance and fall ending up on the ground (a place I personally try to avoid LOL) or simply freeze not having expected such aggression and not respond effectively enough to avoid further injuries.

    -IMHO =)
    "It is sobering to reflect that one of the best ways to get yourself a reputation as a dangerous citizen these days is to go about repeating the very phrases which our founding fathers used in the struggle for independence." – Charles A. Beard

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    Default Re: Knee of Vengeance & Fang Of The Cobra

    Good discussion. Everyone's certainly entitled to an oppinion. In regards to the UFC: watching videos and doing alittle training can be dangerous. I know what its like to be bit on the neck and to have my testicles grabbed during arrests.

    "He who hesitates, meditates in a horizontal position". OK. I've hesitated twice in my career while looking down the barrel of my pistol; Hesitating as the window of opportunity closed smaller and smaller. Both times I successfully took armed men into custody without having to kill them. I do, however, understand that wartime is a different story. In Iraq, the trigger would have been squeezed.

    The truth of the matter is that kenpo is a brutal art, but you have to have a disciplined trigger finger. Even more so for police officers than civilians.

    Jim

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    Default Re: Knee of Vengeance & Fang Of The Cobra

    What I like about the two techniques is that in order to practice them, your opponent/partner has to be in your face. Not a comfortable place, even with someone you know, and although it does not cause the big adrenalin dump that a real encounter would, it does cause some adrenaline to be released.

    So, to me, the principle taught is not so much a principle of motion but a principle involving how to maintain your control during an adrenalin response. Without that, kenpo devolves quickly to brawling.
    Dave

    "I consider that the spiritual life is the life of man's real self, the life of that interior self whose flame is so often allowed to be smothered under the ashes of anxiety and futile concern." - Thomas Merton


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    Default Re: Knee of Vengeance & Fang Of The Cobra

    I like these two techniques because they teach a common combination of knee and fore arm. We this combination a lot later on through out the system and it is usually an easy insert to any technique.
    Quality outweighs quantity every time.

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    Default Re: Knee of Vengeance & Fang Of The Cobra

    Quote Originally Posted by Rob Broad View Post
    For the instructors do you teach them in the same lesson?
    I teach KNEE OF VENGEANCE alongside of EPAK's MACE OF AGRESSION.

    I teach FANG OF COBRA alongside of EPAK's RAKING MACE.
    "The heart of the Kenpo System has always been practical-effective- Self Defense Techniques." Al Tracy

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    Default Re: Knee of Vengeance & Fang Of The Cobra

    I like these two techniques, they are both very practical versus front grabs. I tend not to teach them to my students in the same lesson for a very simple reason, and one that may or may not seem good to some people, they're similar, to new students at least. I have tons of students who get these two movements confused. Granted, they are just starting out and wrapping minds around memorizing movements takes a bit, so I tend to place a lesson break between these two. Just helps keep it simple, fewer students try to throw a forearm at the end of Fang and such.
    As for teaching points and strong points in these techniques, this is what I have come up with. They are both moves that introduce students to up close involvement with an attacker, or at least close controlling body work.
    For Knee:
    You can establish the power principle behind forearm sandwiches, the "make a wall" principle.
    Also you can teach the differences of grabs, shoulder versus under the bicep.
    The foot-stomp is a recurring strike in the system, Heelhook, Fang etc.
    Also for more advanced principles take into account the knee strike can also technically be a check against the opponent throwing a knee shot to your groin.
    For Fang:
    I usually talk about proper ways to make a spear hand, and targeting with the initial strike.
    You can point out the differences in balance and stepping off, as well as multiple movements at the same time, Pin, step, throat. It is a good move to introduce students to that kenpo principle.

    Those are just some of the strong points in the techniques I like to teach there are some combative principles that come up with them if you start getting into Attempt versus Attack situations. Like em both tho.

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    Default Re: Knee of Vengeance & Fang Of The Cobra

    Quote Originally Posted by Kenpo Gary View Post
    I teach KNEE OF VENGEANCE alongside of EPAK's MACE OF AGRESSION.

    I teach FANG OF COBRA alongside of EPAK's RAKING MACE.
    So, as a non-Tracy practitioner...are these techniques similar to those EPAK techniques listed, or just share a common piece of vocabulary?

    Sean

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    Default Re: Knee of Vengeance & Fang Of The Cobra

    Quote Originally Posted by scarey View Post
    So, as a non-Tracy practitioner...are these techniques similar to those EPAK techniques listed, or just share a common piece of vocabulary?

    Sean
    Don't know, I don't know the EPAK versions.
    Dave

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    Default Knee of Vengeance & Fang Of The Cobra

    I thought I would necro this thread to add a little more to the current discussions regarding FOTC.
    Be careful what you say, some may take it the wrong way.

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    Default Re: Knee of Vengeance & Fang Of The Cobra

    Quote Originally Posted by Celtic_Crippler View Post
    I think the threat of UFC wannabe's is very real. The popularity of UFC is evidenced by its syndicated show on Spike TV. If you find yourself in a situation requiring self defense you should consider that your oppenent may try to mimic what they saw on TV or that they may have gone as far as joining one of these new "fight clubs" that are springing up in gyms all over the U.S. where the participants "train" this "style" of fighting.

    As far as allowing someone to choke me.....ain't gonna happen. Forget a "stare down." They'll be just as intimidated once they regain consiousness. LOL. "He who hesitates, meditates in a horizontal position" SGM Parker
    Know what I mean?

    If and when someone is aggressively grabbing you, there will be force behind it. Therefore it is important to understand "motion." If they intend you harm they will not gingerly take up your lapels. No, there will likely be some force behind it. Trained to defend grabs/chokes with this mind, one will not be taken off gaurd if faced with this type scenario. If not prepared, you could lose your balance and fall ending up on the ground (a place I personally try to avoid LOL) or simply freeze not having expected such aggression and not respond effectively enough to avoid further injuries.

    -IMHO =)
    Does this sound familiar...does this sound like a certain ATACX GYM RENEGADE?

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    This gentleman, Hawk, our very own Golden One aka Mr. Conatser, Dan Farmer, and several others right here onsite were and are the renegades preceding the arrival of...THE RENEGADE. Lol. They imparted to me valuable wisdom even before I met them. Their posts, their previous works, were and are guiding lights and beacons for much of what I do.

    Even our very own quintuple OG Doc Chapel...He Whose Shins I Kick...has had a major impact on me in virtually every way from my formative days til now. And let's not forget the way too overlooked Bringer of Doom and Beer, Doc Dave innahouse. His posts and guidance has been invaluable, and he very specifically imparted wisdom and an approach which made my Gathering Clouds much better, and impacted my approach to training from that day to this one.

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    Default Re: Knee of Vengeance & Fang Of The Cobra

    Quote Originally Posted by jdinca View Post
    I thought I would necro this thread to add a little more to the current discussions regarding FOTC.
    Gee, thanks
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    Default Knee of Vengeance & Fang Of The Cobra

    Quote Originally Posted by J-squared View Post
    Gee, thanks
    I knew there was a risk.

    I think it was worth pulling up what Tracy people like Jim Hanna and KenpoDave had to say about the technique.
    Be careful what you say, some may take it the wrong way.

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    Default Knee of Vengeance & Fang Of The Cobra

    Well, since it was necroed in response to the ATACX GYM comparison thread, I will say this.

    I would not call Ras' technique FOTC because I did not see anything resembling it in that version. FOTC, to me, is the initial response (pin hands, spear throat). Change the type of strike and targeting, even the attack (think Striking Fang, Striking Asp, Sleeper, etc.) you are still, in my mind, doing the same thing.

    What was on Ras' video and in his write-up was Front Bearhug (B) on terms of initial reaction.

    I get the feeling, after reading many loooong posts, a few actually about the technique, that Ras lumps any defense against a front choke into the FOTC group. I do not. We have several techs against similar attacks (Wedge, U Punch, 2 Headed Serpent) that are not FOTC, and several techniques (names earlier) against different attacks that are.

    I also disagree with the sentiment that our FOTC is not workable "universally." The alternate responses shown are based on the defender being choked and not reacting until the attack becomes something else.

    I was taught to train the initial response to the point that the hands never touched my throat. I have worked it and worked it and am comfortable with it as my go to tech/response.

    Ras mentions that techniques should work as intended. I agree, and FOTC does. It has worked for the few that I know who have used it for real, and it has worked in any number of drills we have designed to test it.

    I have no problem with Ras' alternate technique, but it is not FOTC. And I have never felt the need to alter FOTC to correct any deficiencies.


    Dave Hopper
    Dave

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    Default Re: Knee of Vengeance & Fang Of The Cobra

    Quote Originally Posted by Kenpodave View Post
    Well, since it was necroed in response to the ATACX GYM comparison thread, I will say this.

    I would not call Ras' technique FOTC because I did not see anything resembling it in that version. FOTC, to me, is the initial response (pin hands, spear throat). Change the type of strike and targeting, even the attack (think Striking Fang, Striking Asp, Sleeper, etc.) you are still, in my mind, doing the same thing.

    What was on Ras' video and in his write-up was Front Bearhug (B) on terms of initial reaction.

    I get the feeling, after reading many loooong posts, a few actually about the technique, that Ras lumps any defense against a front choke into the FOTC group. I do not. We have several techs against similar attacks (Wedge, U Punch, 2 Headed Serpent) that are not FOTC, and several techniques (names earlier) against different attacks that are.

    I also disagree with the sentiment that our FOTC is not workable "universally." The alternate responses shown are based on the defender being choked and not reacting until the attack becomes something else.

    I was taught to train the initial response to the point that the hands never touched my throat. I have worked it and worked it and am comfortable with it as my go to tech/response.

    Ras mentions that techniques should work as intended. I agree, and FOTC does. It has worked for the few that I know who have used it for real, and it has worked in any number of drills we have designed to test it.

    I have no problem with Ras' alternate technique, but it is not FOTC. And I have never felt the need to alter FOTC to correct any deficiencies.


    Dave Hopper
    I responded to this post of yours in my thread, Dave, and I'll repost it here...gimme a sec...

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    Default Re: Knee of Vengeance & Fang Of The Cobra

    Quote Originally Posted by Kenpodave View Post
    Well, since it was necroed in response to the ATACX GYM comparison thread, I will say this.

    I would not call Ras' technique FOTC because I did not see anything resembling it in that version. FOTC, to me, is the initial response (pin hands, spear throat). Change the type of strike and targeting, even the attack (think Striking Fang, Striking Asp, Sleeper, etc.) you are still, in my mind, doing the same thing.

    What was on Ras' video and in his write-up was Front Bearhug (B) on terms of initial reaction.

    I get the feeling, after reading many loooong posts, a few actually about the technique, that Ras lumps any defense against a front choke into the FOTC group. I do not. We have several techs against similar attacks (Wedge, U Punch, 2 Headed Serpent) that are not FOTC, and several techniques (names earlier) against different attacks that are.

    I also disagree with the sentiment that our FOTC is not workable "universally." The alternate responses shown are based on the defender being choked and not reacting until the attack becomes something else.

    I was taught to train the initial response to the point that the hands never touched my throat. I have worked it and worked it and am comfortable with it as my go to tech/response.

    Ras mentions that techniques should work as intended. I agree, and FOTC does. It has worked for the few that I know who have used it for real, and it has worked in any number of drills we have designed to test it.

    I have no problem with Ras' alternate technique, but it is not FOTC. And I have never felt the need to alter FOTC to correct any deficiencies.


    Dave Hopper

    Quote Originally Posted by ATACX GYM View Post
    Whassup Kenpodave aka Dave Hopper! Where ya been? I like your posts, even when they disagree with mine. Which...is most of the time. Lol.

    Why is FOTC to you specifically the initial response? Why can't that response be done at some other point in the attack or counter and still be FOTC? Is there any specifically written definition anywhere that specifically says that FOTC must be such and such and never thus and so? I read somewhere that Mr. Tracy wrote FOTC with the idea that a smaller man or woman is defending vs a larger attacker. Nowhere in any piece of info that I read is there even the hint of an idea against what I'm talking about. In fact? Many pieces of info that I read specified that the Tracys in particular were adept at both grappling AND groundfighting, and would have ZERO problems with a FOTC that functioned from the ground as that is squarely within the parameters and part of the goals set for the training paradigm that they were raised in..."50 Ways to Sunday".

    Let me clarify specifically and quickly what THE ATACX GYM approach is:

    We focus unapologetically on the supremacy of performance. We believe that if you can't do [ pick a SD sequence ] vs any of the categories in the Web of Knowledge, any and every MMA, CQB, and RBSD primary high frequency, high percentage attack? Armed and/or unarmed? Multifight, Shielding [ protecting another person ], Escape, Rescue, and/or any combination of/transition to and through any and all of the above? You don't know [ pick a SD sequence ] well enough. On top of that? If you don't train to STRIKE FIRST with [ pick a sequence ] ? You don't know [ pick a SD sequence ] well enough.

    And you have to train it from EVERY position. Rear attacks. Seated attacks. Flank attacks. Etc. And all of the likely followup attacks too, like punches. Notice that I show this stuff on my video. There are punches leading into the choke attempt, including a clear and specific pointed reference to the sucker punch leading into the various chokes. If you DON'T do such a thing? You are literally underpreparing your students.

    In THE ATACX GYM, our revolutionary approach of training each SD sequence vs the categories of attacks that I listed above means that we bring our whole martial arsenal to literally every instant of every scenario. More traditional SMIPpers DO NOT do such a thing. They bring ONLY THEIR SPECIFIC SEQUENCE and a handful of narrowly focused, limited basics to every instant of every and any SD scenario. Therefore we reliably outperform them in every way. Where they succeed? We succeed more. Where they fail? We excel.

    You can find your students beat down, and your students JUSTIFIABLY remonstrating with you that you DID NOT prepare them for the reality of the street. BECAUSE YOU DIDN'T. You know that you'll be driven to the ground, face armed assailants who'll simultaneously choke you with one hand and menace you with the weapon in the other hand, people who switch the driving choke into a one handed choke and sling punches with the other hand, people who assault you with a choke and they have friends around, etc. You know it comes from the primary positions, standing seated flanks rear and ground. But you don't train ANY of that stuff. That's fine if you're cool with that, but to me? THAT'S INDEFENSIBLE. To me, that's training your students to FAIL unless a SPECIFIC AND ONLY A SPECIFIC kind of attack is obligingly thrown their way. Put another way? Even if you say that your platform defense has carryover to other attacks, you don't actively consciously deliberately train them as such, so your students don't have the muscle memory or mental comfort with them. Their performance is literally inferior against those kinds of high frequency, high percentage attacks because not only do they NOT train against them, they have literally been taught NOT EVEN TO THINK of using any SMIP SD sequence for any attack that isn't specifically the attack that it's allegedly keyed to defend and thwart. My students do the exact opposite, therefore their performance will be relaibly superior to any students who follow the more traditional methods and approaches.

    The way you train your students? You'll get them beatdown and thrown on to some train tracks. And when you're confronted by their grieving family as to why you didn't teach your student how to defend vs that attack? You'll be like:"Yeah...the defense for that attack isn't in that belt rank..."

    POW!! You'll get shot. Deservedly so. LOLOL that's exaggeration but you get my point.

    Think I'm exaggerating about the real world attacks and its frequency, though? Think again.

    http://abcnews.go.com/GMA/video/phil...ushed-18246862

    With that in mind, we test our sequences against these real world commonplace functional stimuli FIRST, and THEN we present our expression successfully resolving attacks from these categories as our BASE expression. It's alot of constantly adjusting, demanding mental and physical work. It's an absolute joy. And it's at once the reason why all of my expressions look so sharply different than the more traditional Kenpo and Kempo expressions of [ pick a sequence ], and why mine work against all forms of primary attacks from jumpstreet...whereas the other expressions fail to do so. Mine are designed to succeed, pretty much come what may. The other sequences hope to succeed, with by far their best chance and ONLY training expression being keyed for and specifically against one precise rendition of one attack.


    Don't gimme that Graft mess, either. Lol. I haven't seen YOU do Kenpo, man, but let's be real: judging from the hallowed SMIP? All Grafting will do [ IF you practice it frequently enough to even make it a "go to" option under pressure, which most don't ], is Graft you from one sequence which will get your butt kicked to ANOTHER sequence which will get your butt kicked. However, teaching the universal application of sequences immediately opens up the students' mind to using whole sequences in a series of movements. FOTC, MOA and AM suddenly become easy as jab cross hook uppercut. And the Position Recognition, entries, the lines of attack and the opportunities to attack, become crystal clear. I regularly...regularly...REGULARLY...[ as in yesterday, and that was SATURDAY for chrissakes ] get students from other Kenpo schools who get that "light bulb" moment in their first week of training with me [ never takes more than 3-4 training days ] and they literally roar their anger at their previous training paradigm.

    In my mind...that's what self defense is supposed to do. Defend your Self. I find the idea of teaching [ pick a sequence ] as ONLY a response to ONLY a specific attack to be functionally sheer folly and lunacy. Put simply...the SMIP FOTC will work only if such and such attack happens just so. To me, that's not self defense, that's Specific Limited Response.

    Do you see? My response includes yours. If the BG attacks us with the classic clueless two handed front choke? He's toast if he fights EITHER of our students. Yours does not include mine. So if the BG tackles your student from behind? He certainly doesn't have to worry about FOTC. He's literally facing a lesser Kenpo arsenal, and his chances of success have literally been increased as a result. This is one of many instances that proves rather thoroughly that the SMIP response is exactly what I said...it is literally less universal. But no matter where the fight goes, my students can and will bring their whole Kenpo arsenal to bear. Tackle my student, will ya Mr. Bad Guy? You'll get ripped to smithereens by our FOTC. Therefore my performance wavelength is definitely more functional, deeper and broader than the traditional SMIP FOTC response, and any response similar to it. Full stop. And that's what I think self defense is supposed to do. Teach you...right now...how to handle all of the categories of real world attacks that you will face. Right now. No excuses.
    Just for clarity's sake? I mean the general "you" when I say "you"...not YOU specifically, Dave.

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    Default Knee of Vengeance & Fang Of The Cobra

    I understand. My Students and I have no problem with the original FoTC, and work in a variety of scenarios, so I exclude us from the generalization anyway.

    While Al Tracy may not have a problem with recognizing a sequence of movements as being the same "technique" even when altered to fit alternate scenarios, in our system, he changes the name and calls it something else. In Tracy's, we have one FoTC, and no variations (ABCD). We have several techniques that use similar response patterns and targeting. Similar enough that most can easily recognize them as the same thing, but Al Tracy calls them something else.

    In your clips, I did not see FoTC. I looked for it. I saw Front Bearhug B, and saw it in your write up.

    Again, didn't see anything wrong with the techniques, I would call them something else.

    You mentioned doing the FoTC sequence at different points in the response: absolutely. In Tracy's, it would get a new name. Look at Sumo, then look at Crash of the Eagle D as a variation from a rear attack, and Attack from the Temple as an offensive variation. Same pattern, we called it something else.

    As far as working the technique to be successful in every conceivable scenario, I submit that, were that possible, your system would contain just 1 technique.

    My disagreement is with your premise; that the original FoTC does not work as presented.

    I also disagree with your semantics, but that is a preference thing. I don't organize my boxes that way. On the street, names don't matter.


    Dave Hopper
    Dave

    "I consider that the spiritual life is the life of man's real self, the life of that interior self whose flame is so often allowed to be smothered under the ashes of anxiety and futile concern." - Thomas Merton


  27. The Following 3 Users Say Thank You to Kenpodave For This Useful Post:

    J-squared (03-27-2013),KenpoGhost (04-04-2013),punisher73 (03-27-2013)

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