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Thread: Knee of Vengeance & Fang Of The Cobra

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    Default Re: Knee of Vengeance & Fang Of The Cobra

    Wouldn't the FOC be better with an eye strike to the front after the hands were trapped? You can always drop from the eye tech to a palmheel to the breast bone. The throat becomes a secondary target after the breast is thumped.

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    Default Re: Knee of Vengeance & Fang Of The Cobra

    Tracy's FOTC has eye strikes, and they are done after the pin. Are you referring to a different Kenpo version perhaps?
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    Default Re: Knee of Vengeance & Fang Of The Cobra

    Maybe not so much "traditional" kenpo as practical self defense techniques from other styles that may be of value in addressing the situation that was presented by the poster.

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    Default Re: Knee of Vengeance & Fang Of The Cobra

    Quote Originally Posted by nelson View Post
    Wouldn't the FOC be better with an eye strike to the front after the hands were trapped? You can always drop from the eye tech to a palmheel to the breast bone. The throat becomes a secondary target after the breast is thumped.

    The problem with this assertion is that one assumes thatwe can reach the eyes. There should be a series of targets trained to be hit by the FOTC, not just the eyes, and those targets could be from the inner thing and groin upward [ when standing ] or downward [ when kneeling or prone ]. Same thing when using edged or blunt nonprojectile weapons. This way the same self defense sequence can be aplied whether standing kneeling or groundfighting, ground grappling, armed or unarmed, and we can flow between all of these situations seamlessly.

    I show my ATACX GYM JUNIORS doing all of this on video, except the pure ground grappling aspect and weapons

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    Default Re: Knee of Vengeance & Fang Of The Cobra

    Palmheel to the breastbone opens the pathway to the throat. Forget the eye if you want. Many JJ techs pre Gracie include eye slaps or strikes.

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    Default Re: Knee of Vengeance & Fang Of The Cobra

    Quote Originally Posted by Kenpodave View Post
    I understand. My Students and I have no problem with the original FoTC, and work in a variety of scenarios, so I exclude us from the generalization anyway.

    While Al Tracy may not have a problem with recognizing a sequence of movements as being the same "technique" even when altered to fit alternate scenarios, in our system, he changes the name and calls it something else. In Tracy's, we have one FoTC, and no variations (ABCD). We have several techniques that use similar response patterns and targeting. Similar enough that most can easily recognize them as the same thing, but Al Tracy calls them something else.

    In your clips, I did not see FoTC. I looked for it. I saw Front Bearhug B, and saw it in your write up.

    Again, didn't see anything wrong with the techniques, I would call them something else.

    You mentioned doing the FoTC sequence at different points in the response: absolutely. In Tracy's, it would get a new name. Look at Sumo, then look at Crash of the Eagle D as a variation from a rear attack, and Attack from the Temple as an offensive variation. Same pattern, we called it something else.

    As far as working the technique to be successful in every conceivable scenario, I submit that, were that possible, your system would contain just 1 technique.

    My disagreement is with your premise; that the original FoTC does not work as presented.

    I also disagree with your semantics, but that is a preference thing. I don't organize my boxes that way. On the street, names don't matter.


    Dave Hopper

    Real quick? That ABCD variants were part of what I learned as a child, growing up. They still survive in our Isolation training as we drill our skills from various positions against whole categories of attacks. I will come back to this post a little later, but I think I already answered this in depth.

    As for Knee of Vengeance? Same problems. Lack of versatile functional training. What if the guy grabs you from behind? Oh, you haven't trained your Knee of Vengeance to get all Vengeful under those circumstances? Then your Knee isn't Vengeful. It's more like...Mildly Offended. What if you're tackled? Again...no training there? Your knee is further reduced in functional use then. It's no longer Mildly Offended. It is...Slightly Peeved.

    The more Complete, the more Universally Functional? The better. The less so? The worse. The trick lies in finding the kind of training method which actually imparts genuine self defense skill instead of conflating SLRSCS [ Specific Limited Responses to Specific Circumstances and Scenarios, pronunced "SLURSKS" ] with self defense skills. Self defense skills and sequences work whenever and wherever you need to defend yourself. SLRSCS at best work only under the narrow circumstances they are trained for...if you have a functional but narrow training method. That right there is the common sense answer and real world fact that destroys the fallacy of the idea of "learn another technique". No. You're getting your butt kicked with what you HAVEN'T TRAINED PROPERLY TO USE UNIVERSALLY NOW, so you will need to train what you have PROPERLY NOW.

    Also, Kenpodave, nobody can train for every conceivable scenario. But we can pretty reliably train for categories of attacks. Train your self defense sequences to deal with categories of attacks, compounded by disadvantageous positions and use attacks [ armed unarmed and multfight ] from various ranges and positions. And BANG. You have pretty much everything except for stuff like nukes and trains coming to rest in your living room covered. And you do it with one sequence. Safely. With fun. And it don't take a long time either. Two weeks, or thereabouts, for the average dweebtastic student.

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    Default Re: Knee of Vengeance & Fang Of The Cobra

    Quote Originally Posted by nelson View Post
    Palmheel to the breastbone opens the pathway to the throat. Forget the eye if you want. Many JJ techs pre Gracie include eye slaps or strikes.
    Inverted palm heel to the testes, hip bone, pocket area, with proper use of stance and lowering of gravity [ if you're standing ] works better. Off your back? Sending a palm heel to the breast bone can get you arm barred or [ for the average bad guy ] will get your arm trapped under him. Hit a Bow Stance and transition while Palm Heeling the hip girdle. That's a buck-bridge and roll. When he shoots his arm out to prevent himself from falling? Either heel palm the groin or heel palm the extended arm at the bend of the elbow or...what I do and teach...overhook that posting arm and roll the bad guy over anyway. Constant stance transition with combination heel palm and Snake strikes sets up and forces the opportunity for the FOTC or gets the BG off of you.

    Remember, not all of our strikes land and not all of our strikes will hit with the power to do what we expect them to do on the first time we hit. So we train nonstop flurries of blows that will end the deal if we land cleanly even once. When the BG is down from our clean strike? We can assess what we do from there.

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    Default Re: Knee of Vengeance & Fang Of The Cobra

    Ras, in your haste to prove everyone but yourself to be wrong, you forgot to read what I actually wrote.

    Real quick, when we work a technique from a different angle or different attack in Tracy's, it has a different name.

    Tracy's has been criticized for having too many techniques, too many names. And some of the "advanced critics" have even used..."they aren't even different techniques, they are the same techniques presented over and over from various angles or various attacks."

    Kinda funny, in light of your rant. You are stating that we are wrong for not doing what we have been criticized for decades for doing.

    Damned if we do, dammed if we don't. I have always preferred the former, so I'll continue doing. You may continue typing.
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    Dave

    "I consider that the spiritual life is the life of man's real self, the life of that interior self whose flame is so often allowed to be smothered under the ashes of anxiety and futile concern." - Thomas Merton


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    Default Re: Knee of Vengeance & Fang Of The Cobra

    Quote Originally Posted by Kenpodave View Post
    ...snip... You may continue typing.
    Of that, there is no doubt.
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    Default Re: Knee of Vengeance & Fang Of The Cobra

    Quote Originally Posted by nelson View Post
    Palmheel to the breastbone opens the pathway to the throat. Forget the eye if you want. Many JJ techs pre Gracie include eye slaps or strikes.
    But you strike the throat from underneath at the beginning of the technique. Why palm heel the breastbone to open the throat?
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    Default Re: Knee of Vengeance & Fang Of The Cobra

    An accurate palm heel can prevent one from dropping the chin to block the throat strike. Wing Chun has a similar throat strike in its basic hand strikes.

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    Default Re: Knee of Vengeance & Fang Of The Cobra

    ARe you think the palm is while they are still choking you, or after you break the choke hold?
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    Default Re: Knee of Vengeance & Fang Of The Cobra

    You address the chock with a trap as you do the overhead pH tit for tat as it were. I'm not claiming to be an infailabe.expert just a guy with an inquiring mind. Did I forget to mention the sweep option when.you.grab the throat? Turnabout is fair play don't yoi.know?

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    Default Re: Knee of Vengeance & Fang Of The Cobra

    Quote Originally Posted by Kenpodave View Post
    Ras, in your haste to prove everyone but yourself to be wrong, you forgot to read what I actually wrote.

    Find the quote where I stated that I'm proving everyone but myself wrong. Not there? Stop jumping to that entirely and wholly unsupported conclusion, then. Thanks. Furthermore...please show the quote from me that inspired your erroneous thought that I was trying to prove everyone but me to be wrong. I guarantee you...right there in that quote...is the evidence that I'm not at all and never have done what you've claimed I've done. You reached that conclusion not only all by yourself, but in direct contradiction to what I have repeatedly stated aaannnnnd demonstrated by post and video. If you want to believe that I'm saying everyone else is wrong--and "everyone else" includes my Uncles who taught me, various Grandmasters I hold in high esteem including Doc [ He Whose Shins I Kick ]--well, okay. Have fun with that.

    Real quick, when we work a technique from a different angle or different attack in Tracy's, it has a different name

    I learned Tracy variants with alphabetized responses. Kimono Grab A, B, etc. Are you saying that you learned these techs and sequences with a wholly different name for each sequence? If so...okay.

    Tracy's has been criticized for having too many techniques, too many names. And some of the "advanced critics" have even used..."they aren't even different techniques, they are the same techniques presented over and over from various angles or various attacks."


    Actually, if you understood my "rant", you would see that I SUPPORT this idea and HAVE DONE SO MY WHOLE LIFE.

    <strong>

    Kinda funny, in light of your rant. You are stating that we are wrong for not doing what we have been criticized for decades for doing.

    I have never stated any such thing. As I stated above, I have done this multiangular and multipositional thing my whole life. What I disagree with is dysfunctional training. Doesn't matter what angle, name, or whatever you put on it...if your base is the essence of dysfunctional sucktacularity, then so will be your angles and positions. Well meaning, sincere people like this guy can still give suspect training advice:

    <strong>

    Because street fights look like this. And keep in mind these are merely street fights by the average untrained joes and janes, not actual experienced criminal predatory attacks:



    See, the average approach doesn't deal with this kind of reality. Therein lies the problem. Am I dissin the multiangular, multipositional, thing? No. Am I dissing the nomenclature thing? No.

    Am I dissing what I think is insufficiently functional training methods? YES!!

    If all you know is Japanese Sword and a guys flurries and shoots the takedown? You need to know how to reliably pull off your Japanese Sword under those circumstances. Does that mean that all you need to know is Japanese Sword?

    NO.

    That's like saying that you can chuck the rest of the arsenal of boxing if you have a sweet jab.

    Those kinds of misunderstandings and misperceptions come from precisely the kind of nonsense that comes from not actually doing the matwork to be comprehensively functional under the primary circumstances and in the primary categories that centuries of documented self defense and warfare tells us are the more likely circumstances that we will find ourselves having to utilize our skill sets.

    This is where I enjoy a significant advantage over you and almost everyone else on this site. I've done what you've done. Literally. I have learned the Tracy Curriculum and fought with it. You have NOT done what I have done. So you lack the depth of experience, knowledge base, etc to functionally grasp what I'm talking about until you get on the mat and do what I've done.



    Damned if we do, dammed if we don't. I have always preferred the former, so I'll continue doing. You may continue typing

    The only damning I see roundabout these parts is the 'damning' that comes from the willful desire to miscomprehend the simplicity of what I'm saying by people like you. And that's okay. Here's the diff.

    I can and do actually prove that I do what I do and am NOT DOING the things that I tell you that I'm NOT doing. I show and prove. You post. And that's okay, too. Therein is all the real world evidence real world scrappers need.

    Have a nice one.


    AMANI...peace.

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    Default Re: Knee of Vengeance & Fang Of The Cobra

    Quote Originally Posted by nelson View Post
    You address the chock with a trap as you do the overhead pH tit for tat as it were.
    You trap the choke to your neck?
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    Default Re: Knee of Vengeance & Fang Of The Cobra

    The problem with the common FANG OF THE COBRA is? It's just not at all realistic. It builds false confidence and false expectations in the mind of the defender. Bottom line? Real attackers don't reliably do what the common Fang of the Cobra assumes the attacker will do. Real attackers attack people who are much shorter than them, a lot of times, in order to increase the likelihood of their victory. Therefore things like the automatic assumption that the Fang goes to the throat or eyes or whatever your teacher says IS NOT TRUE for REAL fights. You Fang a variety of targets that you can access depending upon the exigencies of the situation, not just the throat or eyes or whatever.



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    Default Knee of Vengeance &amp; Fang Of The Cobra

    Ras, we have the ABCD variations, against the same attack, same angle. When the technique is used against either a different attack or angle, the name is changed. (Edit) For example, Flashing Daggers, Crossing Hammers, and Cobra and the Mongoose. Same technique, different angles and attacks. Crossing Hammers has variations A-E, but they are all responses to the same attack. And if you use a multi-angular/multi-attack approach in your model, you will find that B-E can be used as variations on the other techniques, with little change.

    YOUR training model is in there. It was built in.

    When you say things like, "this is where I enjoy a significant advantage over you and almost everyone else on this site," you are assuming me and almost everyone else on this site to be wrong. When you go on to say that you have done what I have done and that I have not done what you have done, you are making stuff up. You don't know what I have done, and by your own admission, do not understand the multi angular multi scenario approach that is built into Tracy's. Further, you assume that "we" only practice the techniques as written, and you have stated that our training is dysfunctional, without knowing how we train. And by we, I mean me and my students, since your comments were directed at me.

    What I teach my students works. They have used it. In a variety of situations ranging from domestic anise, to street attacks, to bouncing, to law enforcement, overseas in hand to hand combat.

    And yet, I am not dissing the training model of "you and almost everyone else on this board."

    Why? Because we already do what you claim to do. We have been doing what you have posted in your video clips for decades.

    I understood your rant. It's the same rant every time. It's like...your very own posting SMIP.

    And on that topic, you state that you DO, while I post. And yet, your posts are quantitatively and qualitatively more abundant than mine, and almost everyone else on this board. YOU post. You may also DO, but you are assuming, again, that I do not. What I do not do is film.

    Look, we agree on method. We disagree on how we organize our method. And we disagree on your assumptions of how I train.
    Last edited by Kenpodave; 12-18-2014 at 02:48 PM.
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