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Thread: Short #1 Form Question

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    Default Short #1 Form Question

    During Short #1, there are NUMEROUS chambers going on. Is each chamber an reverse elbow strike (like when chambering to the hip) or is it just a chamber? I've seen several sites where it's listed solely as a preparation movement prior to a strike and several that say it's a reverse elbow strike. For that matter, in any form or technique, should a chamber to the hip also equate to a reverse elbow strike? I tried doing the form with it in my head that each chamber to the hip is actually a reverse elbow strike, then ran through it with each chamber being just a prep for the next movement and it felt different. Maybe it shouldn't and they both should feel the same. That's why I'm asking. Sorry for the newb ? but trying to get clarification of the basics down pat before I proceed on. Thanks for your time.

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    Default Re: Short #1 Form Question

    Great question.

    I think you should direct this question to Doc.

    I know that for me, If I think of the form as having multiple attackers then the reverse elbow has a place. I dont think a yellow belt thinks to much about this. One would also have to ask if the reverse elbows are applied in finger set?

    Again great question

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    Default Re: Short #1 Form Question

    Quote Originally Posted by MARSHALLS KENPO View Post
    Great question.

    I think you should direct this question to Doc.

    I know that for me, If I think of the form as having multiple attackers then the reverse elbow has a place. I dont think a yellow belt thinks to much about this. One would also have to ask if the reverse elbows are applied in finger set?

    Again great question
    We have a few high rank Tracy's people here that would be able to answer this question for MooseKenpo since he did ask it in a Tracy's forum. I know when I was practicing the Tracy's system my instructor always had us drive back to the chamber, because one arm can not move slow while the other moves fast.
    Quality outweighs quantity every time.

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    Default Re: Short #1 Form Question

    Quote Originally Posted by Rob Broad View Post
    We have a few high rank Tracy's people here that would be able to answer this question for MooseKenpo since he did ask it in a Tracy's forum. I know when I was practicing the Tracy's system my instructor always had us drive back to the chamber, because one arm can not move slow while the other moves fast.
    I agree with your comment about the Tracys Instructors.
    No offense intended. I too drive the elbows back.

    Thanks

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    Default Re: Short #1 Form Question

    Quote Originally Posted by MARSHALLS KENPO View Post
    I agree with your comment about the Tracys Instructors.
    No offense intended. I too drive the elbows back.

    Thanks
    No offense taken by me, I just read practically every post on the site and make sure things are in the right places.
    Quality outweighs quantity every time.

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    Default Re: Short #1 Form Question

    A lot of things can be strikes if we need them to be. However I don't believe they are elbow strikes in short #1 for the following reasons.

    (1) In the Tracy system, most technique katas come after learning the technique. That is , you learn long 3 at green belt level, but it is fill of blue belt techniques. Since you have not learned about fighting multiple opponents, it probably was not an intention of short #1.

    (2) It's the first kata, and multiple opponents is an advanced topic. Mass attack is often regarded to as the first kata filled with multiple opponent techniques.

    (3) On Mr. Tracy's tapes, he narrates himself performing the kata, and never mentions the elbow. Ditto the printed description of the kata in Mr. Tracy's reference book.

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    Default Re: Short #1 Form Question

    Quote Originally Posted by Rob Broad View Post
    No offense taken by me, I just read practically every post on the site and make sure things are in the right places.
    Sometimes I forget what thread Im in.

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    Default Re: Short #1 Form Question

    Quote Originally Posted by MARSHALLS KENPO View Post
    Sometimes I forget what thread Im in.
    It happens to us all
    Quality outweighs quantity every time.

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    Default Re: Short #1 Form Question

    Quote Originally Posted by MooseKenpo View Post
    During Short #1, there are NUMEROUS chambers going on. Is each chamber an reverse elbow strike (like when chambering to the hip) or is it just a chamber? I've seen several sites where it's listed solely as a preparation movement prior to a strike and several that say it's a reverse elbow strike. For that matter, in any form or technique, should a chamber to the hip also equate to a reverse elbow strike? I tried doing the form with it in my head that each chamber to the hip is actually a reverse elbow strike, then ran through it with each chamber being just a prep for the next movement and it felt different. Maybe it shouldn't and they both should feel the same. That's why I'm asking. Sorry for the newb ? but trying to get clarification of the basics down pat before I proceed on. Thanks for your time.
    I teach it as a chamber.

    Many places do list it as a elbow to the rear, but I'm fairly convinced this is simply a justification for the movement, since many of those lineages try to do away with "cocking" a weapon. I think the movements in the form are simply a reflection of a time when we were much more "karate" than we are now.

    Short 1 isn't designed to teach you self-defense, it does ingrain motion that you may eventually use in self-defense.

    Lamont
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    Default Re: Short #1 Form Question

    Quote Originally Posted by Rob Broad View Post
    We have a few high rank Tracy's people here that would be able to answer this question for MooseKenpo since he did ask it in a Tracy's forum. I know when I was practicing the Tracy's system my instructor always had us drive back to the chamber, because one arm can not move slow while the other moves fast.
    At that rank I teach it as a chamber, because we just don't want to confuse the newbees.

    But when they learn L-1, that chamber is changed to thumb slamming into the breast muscle so it covers as it chambers, and can be used as a rebound.

    By the the newbees know enough to get some of the better Master Keys of fast reactions.

    Dr. John M. La Tourrette

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    Default how can they ever pay you enough?

    Quote Originally Posted by Rob Broad View Post
    No offense taken by me, I just read practically every post on the site and make sure things are in the right places.
    Just curious.

    How much time a day do you spend here?

    And how can they ever pay you enough?

    Dr. John M. La Tourrette

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    Default Re: Short #1 Form Question

    Quote Originally Posted by J-squared View Post
    A lot of things can be strikes if we need them to be. However I don't believe they are elbow strikes in short #1 for the following reasons.

    (1) In the Tracy system, most technique katas come after learning the technique. That is , you learn long 3 at green belt level, but it is fill of blue belt techniques. Since you have not learned about fighting multiple opponents, it probably was not an intention of short #1.

    (2) It's the first kata, and multiple opponents is an advanced topic. Mass attack is often regarded to as the first kata filled with multiple opponent techniques.

    (3) On Mr. Tracy's tapes, he narrates himself performing the kata, and never mentions the elbow. Ditto the printed description of the kata in Mr. Tracy's reference book.
    Couldn't any hidden application be trained for and applicated to short one as need be for the lesson of the day, week, or month? Concievably you can do it like a Muay thai fighter one time and a kung fu man the next.
    Sean

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    Default Re: how can they ever pay you enough?

    Quote Originally Posted by John M. La Tourrette View Post
    Just curious.

    How much time a day do you spend here?

    And how can they ever pay you enough?

    Dr. John M. La Tourrette
    They just quadrupaled his salary last night. LOL
    Sean

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    Default Re: Short #1 Form Question

    Quote Originally Posted by KenpoChanger View Post
    Couldn't any hidden application be trained for and applicated to short one as need be for the lesson of the day, week, or month? Concievably you can do it like a Muay thai fighter one time and a kung fu man the next.
    Sean
    Sure it could, but to what benefit? At the early belts the techniques are often simpler to teach simpler concepts, they get more involved and more advanced as the belt rank goes up. I'm wondering what "hidden application" one can add to short #1 that doesn't get covered in the next one or two belts anyway. At that time, the student is better prepared and trained for the more advanced concept.

    I don't know that I would take a person just learning orange belt and Short #1 and try and get them to move like a different person, ie a Muay Thai fighter or Kung Fu fighter. I know it probably would have confused the heck out of me back then. Then given the economic principal of opportunity cost, would I want to spend my expensive private putting/finding hidden applications into short #1, or would I rather do something else? Tough call, and everyone will have their personal preference.

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    Default Re: Short #1 Form Question

    Quote Originally Posted by KenpoChanger View Post
    Couldn't any hidden application be trained for and applicated to short one as need be for the lesson of the day, week, or month? Concievably you can do it like a Muay thai fighter one time and a kung fu man the next.Sean
    Why would anyone want to do that?

    At the low level that S1 is learned, most people can't chew gum and walk at the same time.

    Learning to control the distance, moving at the proper time, and blocking at his point-of-no-return is pretty damn complex for them already.

    Once they have that THEN on the next Kata (L-1) give them a bit more of the complexity, but not too much.

    There is a reason for going from simple to complex.

    Dr. John M. La Tourrette

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    Default Re: Short #1 Form Question

    Coupla ideas...

    1. The body seeks balance around the middle. Drawing to the chamber sharply as you punch sharply provides complementary transitional masses around the Central Axis of the body.

    2. Sharply drawing the hand to the hip...is it a chamber or a strike? Yes. If there is no one behind you, it's a chamber. If you have someone behind you, it's a strike. Focus on a universal intensity, and they will both be correct, defined by context and intent.

    The Peanut Gallery,

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    Default Re: Short #1 Form Question

    I have been to seminars on short 1 and have practiced it forward, backward, with breaks, shuffle replacement, nondominant side, etc. etc.

    Alot of stuff. When I got a chance to ask Mr Tracy about all this stuff he gave me such a simple answer that it really cut through all the crap.

    "Jim, what's wrong with just stepping back and blocking".

    Yep. Exactly right. There's plenty in there with just that, and what you learn in short 1 follows you up through the ranks.

    Jim

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    Default Re: Short #1 Form Question

    When I did the Tracy system, it was a potential strike.

    It's a chamber, but, like Dave said, if someone is behind you, then you hit them with the elbow.

    If you think of it as a strike, you're more likely to remember to chamber it properly and not to a quasi-chamber that many people accidentally do. ahem.

    So if you think of it as a strike, you might end up making the chamber more crisp.

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    Default Re: Short #1 Form Question

    Quote Originally Posted by John M. La Tourrette View Post
    Why would anyone want to do that?

    At the low level that S1 is learned, most people can't chew gum and walk at the same time.

    Dr. John M. La Tourrette
    Hey, I take offense at that! See, I can chew gum and walk at the same...OUCH!! That flloor tile moved on me and caused me to fall, I saw it!

    Thanks for the advice. I just wanted to learn things correctly before I went on to more complex techniques/ideas.

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    Default Re: Short #1 Form Question

    At yellow belt I learned it as a block. Later as we practiced things have been taught to never pass up a target of opportunity, hidden weapons and all that.

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