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  1. #21
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    Default Re: 27 of 28

    Quote Originally Posted by Star Dragon View Post
    According to Kajukenbo master and MA writer John Bishop, Mitose said to Adriano Emperado that Motobu was his uncle and teacher.
    Thanks. Never heard that before.
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    Default Re: 27 of 28

    You may want to contact GM Ray Arquilla in regards to Mitose. Although there are many questions regarding what he has to say about what Mitose taught him, he was in close proximity during Mitose's incarceration.

    FWIW, although I have only briefly interacted with Ray Arquilla on just a few occasions, he is not a man I would ever want to be unhappy wih me. In the martial arts world, he fits into THAT category. Through my limited exposure, there are very few in that group.
    Be careful what you say, some may take it the wrong way.

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    Default Re: 27 of 28

    Quote Originally Posted by MarkC View Post
    None of Motobu's family or descendants acknowledge Mitose, did/do they?
    No, but I wouldn't be surprised if he was considered a disgrace to the family and therefore erased from their memory. Motobu and Mitose seem to have shared their family crest, anyway.

    This is interesting to me a little because the system of Kempo I trained in up to Yondan contains a great deal of Motobu Ryu Shito Ryu from Shogo Kuniba. Doesn't look a lot like things that are supposed to come from Mitose.
    However, as you certainly know, Shogo Kuniba's system was created based on the teachings of a number of masters, both of Karate as well as of other arts; Motobu was only one of those influences.

    Mitose's first book shows some techniques that are clearly reminiscent of what came down to us from Motobu. In more general terms, we find that both teachers emphasized Naihanchi kata and the use of a one-knuckle fist. Motobu's fighting style has further peculiarities that we still see in EPKK today, such as a preference for close combat (as opposed to the long range methods of Shotokan); making the opponent's physical reactions to hits part of one's strategy; using the front hand offensively (typically right after blocking with it); employing the horse stance as a fighting stance (a close parallel to the neutral bow); and a vertical outward block held very high and close to the defender with the arm perpendicular to the ground.

    Even by Okinawan standards, Motobu's system was rather unorthodox. Besides Motobu's personal discoveries gained in so many encounters, it was representing an older, more martial view of Karate, different from the one that eventually evolved into Japanese Karate-do.

    From motobu-ryu.org:

    Thus, Choki sensei's karate could be classified as orthodox Shuri-te with an admixture of Tomari-te. However, Choki sensei's "Shuri-te" was not the same as the later widespread "Shuri-te" karate. Choki sensei's karate was one that retained strong characteristics of the martial karate from the time of Matsumura sensei and Sakuma sensei. The later widespread "Shuri-te" karate, as many times seen today, was changed from the original karate by Itosu sensei to make a product for the purposes of physical exercise in order to be accepted into physical education curriculums of schools.

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    Default Re: 27 of 28

    Quote Originally Posted by jdinca View Post
    You may want to contact GM Ray Arquilla in regards to Mitose. Although there are many questions regarding what he has to say about what Mitose taught him, he was in close proximity during Mitose's incarceration.

    FWIW, although I have only briefly interacted with Ray Arquilla on just a few occasions, he is not a man I would ever want to be unhappy wih me. In the martial arts world, he fits into THAT category. Through my limited exposure, there are very few in that group.
    Interesting. How can he be reached?

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    Default Re: 27 of 28

    Here's what John Bishop wrote on his Kajukenbo Cafe site.

    "This is just my opinion, based on 15 years of research and interviews with people who knew Mitose, like Thomas Young, Robert Trias, Sijo Emperado, Ed Parker, Sig Kufferath, Wally Jay, Richard Kim, and a few others.


    I think no one will ever know where and how much Mitose studied. I just believe that the Koshoji Temple story is a fairy tale written to sell books and scam people. The following things lead me to believe this.

    1. Mitose highly plagarized a Motobu book to do his book.

    2. Mitose was married at least 2 times. Buddhist monks do not marry. Plus Mitose impersonated a Christian minister from at least the 40s on.

    3. Both Thomas Young and Sijo Emperado believe that Kenpo jujitsu was Okinawan, even though they don't know why they have that belief.

    4. Mitose did makiwara training, which is a Okinawan training method.

    5. Mitose only taught one form. The naihanchi kata, which is Okinawan. Choki Motobu was known as a master of the naihanchi kata.

    6. Mitose told Emperado that Motobu was his teacher.

    7. The late martial arts historian Richard Kim, told me that he had met Mitose a few times when he was living in Hawaii, and that Mitose had received instruction from Choki Motobu, to what extent, he did not know.

    8. Mitose had Motobu's picture in his book, along with the picture of one of the karateka's (the man who's breaking the roofing tiles) who brought Motobu to Hawaii.

    9. Both Mitose and Robert Trias used the Kosho Crest at one time. Mitose's people said Robert Trias barrowed it from Mitose. Trias said it was Motobu's crest. Who are we supposed to you believe? Trias retired as a Lt. from the Arizona Highway Patrol, Mitose retired as a convicted murderer and con man.

    10. If the Koshoji temple trained up to 200 monks at one time, where are their decendants? Kosho Ryu is totally unknown in Japan. It is also unknown everywhere else outside of James Mitose's lineage.

    In my own mind I believe that Mitose learned the naihanchi kata from someone, or a book, and also learned some jujitsu from someone. I mean how much do you have to know when your the only guy teaching karate to the non-Asians who have never seen karate before?

    I have seen the pictures of Mitose with Okizaki. Okizaki's "American Judo and Jujitsu Association" had a kenpo branch. Mitose, Young, and Chow's schools were the only members. In fact they were the only kenpo schools in Hawaii at the time.

    I don't really see any factual evidence to support the differant stories that have been told over the years, such as Motobu was Mitose's paternal uncle. Both Kim and Trias said this wasn't true. Motobu's son has said that they were not related.
    I don't know where Al Tracy got the Yoshida clan story, but he has changed his historical writtings a few times over the years. William Durbin is the same way.

    I have a journalist colleage in England ( Graham Noble) who has researched and written much on the history of Okinawan/Japanese styles. We've corresponded a lot trying to figure out where Kosho Ryu Kenpo came from. He has traced many Japanese ryu's trying to find a connection to, or mention of Kosho.
    Both Thomas Young and Sijo Emperado said that they never heard Mitose use the term "Kosho Ryu" kenpo untill the second edition of his book was published in 1981. The first edition in 1953 has no referance to Kosho Ryu, or the Kosho Ryu crest.

    Anyway, looking at Mitose's book, will see a lot of jujitsu techniques, and a small sampling of strikes and kicks.

    So, I guess it's like I said. We probably will never know the origin and extent of Mitose's training.

    As to the ranking and the people mentioned, I'll leave that subject alone, with the knowledge that most heads of systems ussually rank themselves at 10th degree. And there are many systems where the true leadership is in debate."
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    Default Re: 27 of 28

    Thats what I like about John Bishops work.He covers the bases
    Tradition is not about the preservation of the ashes, but about keeping the flame alive

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    Default Re: 27 of 28

    Yes, but what we are talking about here isn't if Mitose learned his art in the Koshoji temple but if he was an (indirect) student of Motobu.

    Talking about Mitose's skill level, there are different statements. Emperado, who worked with him extensively, called him "a master instructor."

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    Default 27 of 28

    Quote Originally Posted by Star Dragon View Post
    Interesting. How can he be reached?
    www.irondragonmartialarts.net

    He started with the Tracy's in '65 but he was also one of Mitose's prison guards.
    Last edited by jdinca; 10-31-2015 at 12:14 PM.
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    Default Re: 27 of 28

    "Mitose's first book shows some techniques that are clearly reminiscent of what came down to us from Motobu. In more general terms, we find that both teachers emphasized Naihanchi kata and the use of a one-knuckle fist. Motobu's fighting style has further peculiarities that we still see in EPKK today, such as a preference for close combat (as opposed to the long range methods of Shotokan); making the opponent's physical reactions to hits part of one's strategy; using the front hand offensively (typically right after blocking with it); employing the horse stance as a fighting stance (a close parallel to the neutral bow); and a vertical outward block held very high and close to the defender with the arm perpendicular to the ground."

    Are you dismissing the widely held view that Mitise's book is a blatant plagiarization of Motobu's earlier book?



    "Talking about Mitose's skill level, there are different statements. Emperado, who worked with him extensively, called him "a master instructor."

    i havent seen seen that quite, but I have seen one where Sijo Emperado said Mitose gave him a high rank which he didn't think ver much of, since he knew of him selling high rank to many people.

    Professor Chow didn't have very complimentary thing to say about Mitose's skill. Neither did Ed Parker, later on.
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    "...I already watched the videos, and quite frankly, they're bullsh*t."

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    Default Re: 27 of 28

    Quote Originally Posted by jdinca View Post
    www.irondragonmartialarts.com

    He started with the Tracy's in '65 but he was also one of Mitose's prison guards.
    Iron Dragon Martial Arts - Roseville - Combat Kosho. That .com address gets you to a Georgia Tae kwon do school. Ray is in the Sacramento, CA area.
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    Default 27 of 28

    Quote Originally Posted by flying crane View Post
    Iron Dragon Martial Arts - Roseville - Combat Kosho. That .com address gets you to a Georgia Tae kwon do school. Ray is in the Sacramento, CA area.
    Good catch .net not .com.
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    Default Re: 27 of 28

    Quote Originally Posted by MarkC View Post
    "Mitose's first book shows some techniques that are clearly reminiscent of what came down to us from Motobu. In more general terms, we find that both teachers emphasized Naihanchi kata and the use of a one-knuckle fist. Motobu's fighting style has further peculiarities that we still see in EPKK today, such as a preference for close combat (as opposed to the long range methods of Shotokan); making the opponent's physical reactions to hits part of one's strategy; using the front hand offensively (typically right after blocking with it); employing the horse stance as a fighting stance (a close parallel to the neutral bow); and a vertical outward block held very high and close to the defender with the arm perpendicular to the ground."

    Are you dismissing the widely held view that Mitise's book is a blatant plagiarization of Motobu's earlier book?
    Mark, you're off the mark here. It's true that both books have a similar chapter on makiwara training. Other than that, the parallels are just expressing Motobu's influence on Mitose. Mitose moreover integrated ideas from Mutsu and Okazaki. That's not plagiarism. Otherwise all martial arts are plagiarized. Most of all, EPKK.

    "Talking about Mitose's skill level, there are different statements. Emperado, who worked with him extensively, called him "a master instructor."

    i havent seen seen that quite, but I have seen one where Sijo Emperado said Mitose gave him a high rank which he didn't think ver much of, since he knew of him selling high rank to many people.

    Professor Chow didn't have very complimentary thing to say about Mitose's skill. Neither did Ed Parker, later on.
    It's not untypical that masters don't have a high opinion of each other, especially in the martial arts - LOL. There can be a variety of reasons for that. Mitose didn't demonstrate much. Maybe he wanted to avoid showing off. I recall his son Thomas saying in an interview that he hardly ever saw his father doing his art. But when he once did eventually, Thomas was stunned. It looks like Mitose was usually giving only oral instructions.
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    Default Re: 27 of 28

    Quote Originally Posted by MarkC View Post
    Here's what John Bishop wrote on his Kajukenbo Cafe:

    [COLOR=#000000]6. Mitose told Emperado that Motobu was his teacher. [/
    I don't see any reference to Mitose stating that Motobu was his uncle.
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    Default Re: 27 of 28

    Quote Originally Posted by Star Dragon View Post
    Mark, you're off the mark here. It's true that both books have a similar chapter on makiwara training. Other than that, the parallels are just expressing Motobu's influence on Mitose. Mitose moreover integrated ideas from Mutsu and Okazaki. That's not plagiarism. Otherwise all martial arts are plagiarized. Most of all, EPKK.



    It's not untypical that masters don't have a high opinion of each other, especially in the martial arts - LOL. There can be a variety of reasons for that. Mitose didn't demonstrate much. Maybe he wanted to avoid showing off. I recall his son Thomas saying in an interview that he hardly ever saw his father doing his art. But when he once did eventually, Thomas was stunned. It looks like Mitose was usually giving only oral instructions.
    I'm far from the only one who considers the book to be plagiarized.
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    Default Re: 27 of 28

    I think this speaks to how innovative Chow was. We can argue all day about whether Mitose was a fraud or not, but his skill set was clearly very simple. Chow took a simple skill set, whether you believe he learned it from Mitose or not, and made it into something more effective. Based on the caliber of the students he produced, Chow was way ahead of his time. He was teaching functional martial arts and street self-defense long before it was the "in thing" to do.

    I believe the sophistication came later with Mr. Parker. If we look at Naihanchi and Form 4 there is a huge contrast. There is information in Naihanchi, but, to me, it is well hidden. Form 4, on the other hand, has so much information in there that it can be overwhelming. The contrast is remarkable and it speaks to the strengths and weaknesses of both systems of training.
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    Default Re: 27 of 28

    Quote Originally Posted by KenpoMD View Post
    Based on the caliber of the students he produced, Chow was way ahead of his time. He was teaching functional martial arts and street self-defense long before it was the "in thing" to do
    Well, except for the martial artists of all stripes, from all parts of the world and all cultures, who have been teaching and training functional and effective combat and fighting skills for as long as humans have walked the earth...
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    Default Re: 27 of 28

    Quote Originally Posted by MarkC View Post
    I'm far from the only one who considers the book to be plagiarized.
    It's true that Mitose lifted some pictures from other books for the introductory part. And in his self-defence techniques, yes, ideas from Motobu, Mutsu and Okazaki can be recognized. Because he took what he had learned from others and synthesized it into a new art. So he did essentially what Bruce Lee did later... and Ed Parker.

    What interests me is not whether or not he infringed some copyrights, rather: How much Motobu is there in Kosho-shorei-ryu and its descendants?

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    Default Re: 27 of 28

    Quote Originally Posted by KenpoMD View Post
    I think this speaks to how innovative Chow was. We can argue all day about whether Mitose was a fraud or not, but his skill set was clearly very simple. Chow took a simple skill set, whether you believe he learned it from Mitose or not, and made it into something more effective.
    And yet, if we look at What is Self-Defense? closely, we find bits and pieces, and sometimes complete early forms of numerous Parker techniques. In its pages, I glimpse Shielding Hammer, Grasp of Death, Crossing Talon, Entangled Wing, Charging Ram, Mace of Aggression, Obscure Wing, Cross of Destruction, Sleeper, Clipping the Storm, Returning the Storm, Obstructing the Storm, Twisted Rod, Broken Rod, Buckling Branch, Shield and Mace, Shield and Sword, Circling Wing, Raking Mace, and Twirling Wings. And hey, it was a beginner's book! Mitose had even more up his sleeve, supposedly.

    I don't intend to deny that Chow developed some of what he had learned from Mitose plus came up with stuff of his own making. But his contributions remain somewhat intangible. The same is true regarding his martial arts education; it is believed that he had his background in a variation of White Crane or Hung Gar from his father or some Buddhist monk. Then again, we hear that the art Parker learned from him was rather linear (resembling Karate), and that the introduction of circular Chinese elements started with Secrets of Chinese Karate (1963).

    Based on the caliber of the students he produced, Chow was way ahead of his time. He was teaching functional martial arts and street self-defense long before it was the "in thing" to do.
    Yes, with his approach, he was ahead of his time, and many martial arts systems and instructors haven't caught up with him to this day. (In some cases, street effectiveness is not their aim, and that's alright - as long as they are honest about it.)

    I believe the sophistication came later with Mr. Parker. If we look at Naihanchi and Form 4 there is a huge contrast. There is information in Naihanchi, but, to me, it is well hidden. Form 4, on the other hand, has so much information in there that it can be overwhelming. The contrast is remarkable and it speaks to the strengths and weaknesses of both systems of training.
    Naihanchi doesn't look like much but it is arguably the most sophisticated Shorin-ryu kata internally. In particular, it teaches advanced principles of body alignment and power generation. Why is it that many styles emphasize standing in horse stance for prolonged periods of time? But yes, this and other information (such as on Tuite and Kyusho-jitsu) is "hidden" in the form.

    To me, Parker's sophistication lies mostly in his systematic and progressive take on Kenpo. He defined it as an encyclopedia of motion. It has been said that every martial art is contained within EPKK, and that's not too much of an exaggeration.
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    Default Re: 27 of 28

    Quote Originally Posted by flying crane View Post
    Well, except for the martial artists of all stripes, from all parts of the world and all cultures, who have been teaching and training functional and effective combat and fighting skills for as long as humans have walked the earth...
    Yep. Except for those.
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    Default Re: 27 of 28

    Quote Originally Posted by Star Dragon View Post
    And yet, if we look at What is Self-Defense? closely, we find bits and pieces, and sometimes complete early forms of numerous Parker techniques. In its pages, I glimpse Shielding Hammer, Grasp of Death, Crossing Talon, Entangled Wing, Charging Ram, Mace of Aggression, Obscure Wing, Cross of Destruction, Sleeper, Clipping the Storm, Returning the Storm, Obstructing the Storm, Twisted Rod, Broken Rod, Buckling Branch, Shield and Mace, Shield and Sword, Circling Wing, Raking Mace, and Twirling Wings. And hey, it was a beginner's book! Mitose had even more up his sleeve, supposedly.
    If you look closely at the self defense technique sequences in Wally Jay's Small Circle Jujitsu book, you will find the same thing.

    Wally Jay has an indirect connection to Mitose through Okazaki.
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