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Thread: Sport or Art

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    Default Sport or Art

    This may be the wrong place....there may already be a thread on this...

    What makes Martial Arts an art and not a sport? Or would you consider it a sport?

    I got into an argument with a friend about this. WHile he was willing to yeild that Tai Chi was an art, he wasn't so eager to consider the rest of it art. I told him Tai Chi had origins in fighting.

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    Default Re: Sport or Art

    Neither,

    With art, it is something one practices, to create something new for the enjoyment of others. It is something that is often lived and experienced.

    With sport, it is something one does and practices for self enjoyment, within a confined known entity of rules, procedures and events.

    Martial artists learn to hurt, break and even kill people. In some ways, it's the opposite to art, because one learns to destroy and not to create (unless you create bumps, bruises and broken bones). It's something you can not experience 100%, as you'd spend too much time in the hospital.

    Although good martial artists have similarities to some sports. One should train for it, there exists certain aspects of athleticism, timing, speed, strength... It is not bound by a confined set of rules, procedures and events, ie "the street".

    Just some simple ramblings.

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    Default Re: Sport or Art

    Quote Originally Posted by Anoise View Post
    This may be the wrong place....there may already be a thread on this...

    What makes Martial Arts an art and not a sport? Or would you consider it a sport?

    I got into an argument with a friend about this. WHile he was willing to yeild that Tai Chi was an art, he wasn't so eager to consider the rest of it art. I told him Tai Chi had origins in fighting.
    It would be the application
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    Default Re: Sport or Art

    Quote Originally Posted by J-squared View Post
    Neither,

    With art, it is something one practices, to create something new for the enjoyment of others. It is something that is often lived and experienced.

    With sport, it is something one does and practices for self enjoyment, within a confined known entity of rules, procedures and events.

    Martial artists learn to hurt, break and even kill people. In some ways, it's the opposite to art, because one learns to destroy and not to create (unless you create bumps, bruises and broken bones). It's something you can not experience 100%, as you'd spend too much time in the hospital.

    Although good martial artists have similarities to some sports. One should train for it, there exists certain aspects of athleticism, timing, speed, strength... It is not bound by a confined set of rules, procedures and events, ie "the street".

    Just some simple ramblings.
    I think Martial arts are about control not maiming and doing negative things, and while art can be about creation, creation and being creative are not essential to art. Sports are about competition. Period.
    sean

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    Default Re: Sport or Art

    Sports only allow you to do things that are considered sporting. Art allows for whatever means it decides to reach its end.

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    Default Re: Sport or Art

    Not maiming? Aikido maybe, Kempo/Kenpo is all about maiming and destroying your opponent. Controlling the opponent is great if it is feasible and we do train for that but when someone attacks, all bets are off...

    .02
    The above is just my opinion.

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    Default Re: Sport or Art

    Martial Arts - Arts of War. Taking the ability to dominate an opponent, up to and including death, to level of art. Sport is about competition, with defined rules of engagement.

    Medical Science used to be called the Art of Medicine.
    Be careful what you say, some may take it the wrong way.

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    Default Re: Sport or Art

    Quote Originally Posted by Anoise View Post
    This may be the wrong place....there may already be a thread on this...

    What makes Martial Arts an art and not a sport? Or would you consider it a sport?.
    There are 4 reasons for doing martial arts and "art" is not one of them.

    Tai Chi normally is done for "health & longivity" and NOT for self-defense.

    According to Cheng, Tai chi did not even have dim mak (martial arts orientated "spotting" skills) in it orginally. So he had to spend 5 years learning that for defensive purposes. (Read, "Tai Chi" by Robert W. Smith).

    Dr. John M. La Tourrette

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    Default Re: Sport or Art

    Quote Originally Posted by J-squared View Post
    Neither,

    Martial artists learn to hurt, break and even kill people. In some ways, it's the opposite to art, because one learns to destroy and not to create (unless you create bumps, bruises and broken bones).

    Just some simple ramblings.

    There are some great works of (ART) which have very destructive applications in and through history.

    Art is Art because someone gave it that name nothing more.
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    Default Re: Sport or Art

    Quote Originally Posted by jdinca View Post
    Martial Arts - Arts of War.
    For what it's worth, many people believe the term martial isn't entirely accurate either. When trained for war, years and years ago, training involved a lot of formation fighting, Squads, units, cohorts...

    Yet when you look at the individual waza of the popular kata's used by Japanese and Okinawan karate, you see self defense. Maybe one on one or one on two fighting, but not really group fighting. Which many would consider a requisite for war. The drills would be different.

    The term "martial art" is so entrenched that it won't change. However, I'm not convinced it is very martial, or very artistic.

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    Default Re: Sport or Art

    Quote Originally Posted by MARSHALLS KENPO View Post
    There are some great works of (ART) which have very destructive applications in and through history.
    Such as?

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    Default Re: Sport or Art

    One I can say that for the most part, Kenpo is not a sport. To me a sport is a competition between two teams or players with rules of a game with a winner to be determined by the rules. Kenpo is a self defense for situations when there is no rules. You attacker is only limited by whatever his conscience is at the moment, which probably isn't very much since he is attacking you.

    Now is it an art? Philosophically, it is still argued what is or isn't art. The common modern idea of art comes from Neitsche and Dewey in that art somewhat is a reflection of reality. The artist communicates his reality to his audience. However, Dewey pointed out that there is a gap between the real and the art. a quote from him is:

    The work of art ... is not only the outcome of the imagination, but operates imaginatively rather than in the realm of physical existences. What is does is to concentrate and enlarge and immediate experience.
    Art does not have to be constructive. Art can be destructive as was argued here. Destructive art can be seen as the song God Save the Queen by the Sex Pistols. It was a political statement.

    Now is Kenpo an art. Looking at it from the POV of the artist from where it came, Mr. Parker, is it an expression of his reality? It has the other earmarks of art, such as great imagination and great "inventions" of body physics in confrontations. I think one could fall on either side and not be right or wrong.

    However, out of deference and respect to Mr. Parker, I will always consider what he did as art. His artwork was a lifetime in the making.
    Last edited by jjpregler; 08-30-2007 at 12:15 PM.

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    Default Re: Sport or Art

    One man's trash is another man's treasure. One man's Art...

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    Default Re: Sport or Art

    Quote Originally Posted by J-squared View Post
    For what it's worth, many people believe the term martial isn't entirely accurate either. When trained for war, years and years ago, training involved a lot of formation fighting, Squads, units, cohorts...

    Yet when you look at the individual waza of the popular kata's used by Japanese and Okinawan karate, you see self defense. Maybe one on one or one on two fighting, but not really group fighting. Which many would consider a requisite for war. The drills would be different.

    The term "martial art" is so entrenched that it won't change. However, I'm not convinced it is very martial, or very artistic.
    I can understand your point of view. I think a lot of it has to do with the philosophy of the system, or the school. There's a lot of martial arts out there that is just learning how to be a smash mouth fighter with nothing else added in. There are also situations where it should be called "Self Defense Training" as opposed to Martial Arts because of the example you mentioned. Think about this, a martial arts practitioner achieves a level where he is lethal even if there's a number of attackers but he can end the situation quickly without killing anybody and with minimal effort. This, to me, is skill honed to a point where it's approaching the level of art. If you add in the mental and spiritual training that goes along with that in many styles, then I think there's a better case for calling it an art.

    And, after all, art is in the eye of the beholder.
    Be careful what you say, some may take it the wrong way.

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    Default Re: Sport or Art

    Quote Originally Posted by J-squared View Post
    Such as?
    Look at Di Vinci's designs of weapons, it is art because Di Vinci drew it and they sell at auction as pieces of art. However the intent had nothing to do with art. Also if a Master Sword / knife Craftsman designs a wonderful blade as a piece of art, then it is clasified that way untill it is in the hand of an attacker. Art is a matter of ones perception.
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    Default Re: Sport or Art

    Brad,

    I had not thought about a truly well made sword or DaVinci's designs. Good point. Though I might argue, only a little, that there is a slight difference in how they are enjoyed, a sword can still be enjoyed without using it on someone. The swordsmith can be appreciated for his ability to work with metal. Can I be appreciated for my ability to hurt people?

    Not that I want to win the anal jerk of the year award for semantics or anything, but I disagree with the phrases:
    Art is a matter of ones perception or
    art is in the eye of the beholder
    Whether it is good art or bad art is based on one's perception. Whether it IS art, is based on one's definition of what art is and is not. If two people disagree on the definition of what is and is not art, the rest is not so meaningful.

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    Default Re: Sport or Art

    Quote Originally Posted by J-squared View Post
    Brad,

    I had not thought about a truly well made sword or DaVinci's designs. Good point. Though I might argue, only a little, that there is a slight difference in how they are enjoyed, a sword can still be enjoyed without using it on someone. The swordsmith can be appreciated for his ability to work with metal. Can I be appreciated for my ability to hurt people?

    Not that I want to win the anal jerk of the year award for semantics or anything, but I disagree with the phrases:
    Whether it is good art or bad art is based on one's perception. Whether it IS art, is based on one's definition of what art is and is not. If two people disagree on the definition of what is and is not art, the rest is not so meaningful.
    A vital part of whether Kenpo is art would rely on a the definition of what Kenpo is. And I totally disagree with your simple definition as: "ability to hurt people." I don't know if I can define it, but I can tell just on instinct that yours is not right. You just have to look at the Kenpo creed to see it is wrong. Where in the Kenpo creed do you see hurting or injuring others. It is about defending self, others or principles.

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    Default Re: Sport or Art

    Quote Originally Posted by J-squared View Post
    Brad,

    I had not thought about a truly well made sword or DaVinci's designs. Good point. Though I might argue, only a little, that there is a slight difference in how they are enjoyed, a sword can still be enjoyed without using it on someone. The swordsmith can be appreciated for his ability to work with metal. Can I be appreciated for my ability to hurt people?
    I like your response, thank you.

    If a swordsmith can appreciate his abilty to work with metal, then why cant a martial artist appreciate his abilties as well. There is nothing that says you will ever have to use them.

    You asked could you be appreciated for your abilty to hurt people?
    Answer: NO

    I ask can you be appreciated for your abilty to keep someone else from becoming a victim?

    The answer is only important to you

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    Default Re: Sport or Art

    Some very interesting points and perspectives. Here's my 0.02....

    All Martial arts share aspects of art, sport, and war. One important defining factor of a style is where the primary focus lies. But just because we may not immediately recognize something of the other aspects on the surface of a style, does not mean that style does not possess them to some degree.

    Those that focus on performance, whether it's for personal pleasure or growth, or to entertain others would be more 'art' oriented. Most Martial Arts include forms, kata, dances...whatever you want to call them. These are opportunities to really express yourself and could be considered the 'art' side of your style. Tai Chi and Wu-shu could be considered to be 'art' oriented.

    Those that focus on sparring and competitions would obviously be 'sport' oriented. Most of us know that the way we train for self-defense is different than how we train if/when preparing for a torunament. Simply put, in 'sport' the safety of both combatants is a concern, not so in terms of 'war' or self defense. 'Sport' is limited in application because there is a clearly defined set of rules as to what is acceptable. In terms of self-defense it's simply about survival and the rule book goes out the window! Americanized TKD and Olympic Judo would be clear examples.

    Those that focus on self defense would be considered your 'war' oriented styles. Focus on defending against weapons, prevelent street fighting methods, and multiple attackers would be paramount for instance. The training is centered on techniques and devastating methods of destroying a threat(s).

    So there's my take on it. In Kenpo I can compete if I want, but I have to change my training focus somewhat. I can also express myself by practicing forms, however my primary focus training-wise is in self-defense.
    "It is sobering to reflect that one of the best ways to get yourself a reputation as a dangerous citizen these days is to go about repeating the very phrases which our founding fathers used in the struggle for independence." Charles A. Beard

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    Default Re: Sport or Art

    Quote Originally Posted by Celtic_Crippler View Post
    Some very interesting points and perspectives. Here's my 0.02....

    All Martial arts share aspects of art, sport, and war. One important defining factor of a style is where the primary focus lies. But just because we may not immediately recognize something of the other aspects on the surface of a style, does not mean that style does not possess them to some degree.

    Those that focus on performance, whether it's for personal pleasure or growth, or to entertain others would be more 'art' oriented. Most Martial Arts include forms, kata, dances...whatever you want to call them. These are opportunities to really express yourself and could be considered the 'art' side of your style. Tai Chi and Wu-shu could be considered to be 'art' oriented.

    Those that focus on sparring and competitions would obviously be 'sport' oriented. Most of us know that the way we train for self-defense is different than how we train if/when preparing for a torunament. Simply put, in 'sport' the safety of both combatants is a concern, not so in terms of 'war' or self defense. 'Sport' is limited in application because there is a clearly defined set of rules as to what is acceptable. In terms of self-defense it's simply about survival and the rule book goes out the window! Americanized TKD and Olympic Judo would be clear examples.

    Those that focus on self defense would be considered your 'war' oriented styles. Focus on defending against weapons, prevelent street fighting methods, and multiple attackers would be paramount for instance. The training is centered on techniques and devastating methods of destroying a threat(s).

    So there's my take on it. In Kenpo I can compete if I want, but I have to change my training focus somewhat. I can also express myself by practicing forms, however my primary focus training-wise is in self-defense.
    Well spoken Mr. Celtic
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