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Thread: Sport or Art

  1. #21
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    Default Re: Sport or Art

    Quote Originally Posted by Dianhsuhe View Post
    Not maiming? Aikido maybe, Kempo/Kenpo is all about maiming and destroying your opponent. Controlling the opponent is great if it is feasible and we do train for that but when someone attacks, all bets are off...

    .02
    That is not what the art is about.
    Sean

  2. #22
    RDCParker is offline
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    Default Re: Sport or Art

    I'm still a firm believer that it is the practitioner that makes art. I'd like to offer the following definitions for the word ART that I found on Dictionary.com. There was a list of about 16 different definitions, but I thought that these five below were important to the conversation. More specifically, I think they relate directly to us and our craft.

    - any field using the skills or techniques of art: advertising art; industrial art.
    - the principles or methods governing any craft or branch of learning: the art of baking; the art of selling.
    - the craft or trade using these principles or methods.
    - skill in conducting any human activity: a master at the art of conversation.
    - skilled workmanship, execution, or agency, as distinguished from nature.

    I think these definitions speak to the fact that what we practice is, in fact, an artform. Even if it is taught to us scientifically (and there are many seniors on this board that break down the science of kenpo to us daily), in the end it is our own expression of what we learned that make it the art. Whether it is a sport tournament or on the street, there's a reason why we call it the martial arts, the combative arts, the art of war, whatever you like.
    "Your kung fu's no good..."
    *Warrior, Scholar*

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    Default Re: Sport or Art

    Quote Originally Posted by Celtic_Crippler View Post
    Some very interesting points and perspectives. Here's my 0.02....

    All Martial arts share aspects of art, sport, and war. One important defining factor of a style is where the primary focus lies. But just because we may not immediately recognize something of the other aspects on the surface of a style, does not mean that style does not possess them to some degree.

    Those that focus on performance, whether it's for personal pleasure or growth, or to entertain others would be more 'art' oriented. Most Martial Arts include forms, kata, dances...whatever you want to call them. These are opportunities to really express yourself and could be considered the 'art' side of your style. Tai Chi and Wu-shu could be considered to be 'art' oriented.

    Those that focus on sparring and competitions would obviously be 'sport' oriented. Most of us know that the way we train for self-defense is different than how we train if/when preparing for a torunament. Simply put, in 'sport' the safety of both combatants is a concern, not so in terms of 'war' or self defense. 'Sport' is limited in application because there is a clearly defined set of rules as to what is acceptable. In terms of self-defense it's simply about survival and the rule book goes out the window! Americanized TKD and Olympic Judo would be clear examples.

    Those that focus on self defense would be considered your 'war' oriented styles. Focus on defending against weapons, prevelent street fighting methods, and multiple attackers would be paramount for instance. The training is centered on techniques and devastating methods of destroying a threat(s).
    Well,

    I do not like the word "art" but I do like the word "craftsman" which denotes someone with a high level of skill at a certain task.

    War is totally different than self-defense.

    War is where you kill the enemy. Using bombs, first strikes, guerrilla warfare, etc.

    There self-defense, which does teach those principles of awareness and how to stop an aggressor.

    There is sport. Sport can be for your own skill accessing against others in a tag game.

    Even in the sport of cage fighting, if one has a knife and is trained in the war tactics of killing with a knife the best sport guy will die.

    There is demonstration sport which is "how good you apprear" to those that watch. A slim body and big breasts will help you win every time.

    There is health reasons. Muscles, breathing, movement, stretching, energy work.

    There is much more, but enough for now.

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    Default Re: Sport or Art

    Quote Originally Posted by KenpoChanger View Post
    That is not what the (kenpo) art is about.
    Sean
    It does depend on the practitioner and the skills he wants, does it not?

    We are all different. NLP has mapped 52 different meta-programs whick gives us hundreds of thousands of different combinations.

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    Default Re: Sport or Art

    Quote Originally Posted by Anoise View Post
    What makes Martial Arts an art and not a sport? Or would you consider it a sport?
    The personality, idenity, values, beliefs, situations of the person learning.

    It can be many different things to many different people.

    I've trained a few mercenaries. What they want and need is different than a forms participant wants and needs.

    I train a man 58 years old with congestive heart failure. We don't run 10 miles nor do we spar. He does learn good kenpo and good energy to strengthen his heart.

    Many different stories.

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    Default Re: Sport or Art

    My guess would be that it lies in the intent of the practitioner. If your goal is to join tournaments and that is your focus, then your focus is sport. If your goal is to create great demo teams for others to watch, then the focus is art. If your goal is defend yourself, then...I don't know for sure.

    The question lies within the definition of "art." For me, Kenpo is closer to art because art can be defined as a "Human contrivance or ingenuity, as in adapting natural things to a man's use." Is that not what modern martial arts is today? The natural human body adapting to that of a human weapon by the ingenuity of mankind? The be-all end-all for me is not to be able to produce pretty forms or reach some rank. The be-all end-all for me is to be able to take what I've learned and God forbid, if I ever have to use it, be able to apply it quickly, assertively, and without conscious thought. That could be called a lot of things, but I don't think it has anything to do with sport.

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    Default Re: Sport or Art

    Quote Originally Posted by John M. La Tourrette View Post
    Well,

    I do not like the word "art" but I do like the word "craftsman" which denotes someone with a high level of skill at a certain task.

    War is totally different than self-defense.

    War is where you kill the enemy. Using bombs, first strikes, guerrilla warfare, etc.

    There self-defense, which does teach those principles of awareness and how to stop an aggressor.

    There is sport. Sport can be for your own skill accessing against others in a tag game.

    Even in the sport of cage fighting, if one has a knife and is trained in the war tactics of killing with a knife the best sport guy will die.

    There is demonstration sport which is "how good you apprear" to those that watch. A slim body and big breasts will help you win every time.

    There is health reasons. Muscles, breathing, movement, stretching, energy work.

    There is much more, but enough for now.
    I'm sure we could further break styles down into sub-categories. Shoot, you could definately write a book about it and it would be a great read! I just feel that the simple classifications are easier to grasp by most and if someone is looking for a style to fit their "needs" this approach can generally set them on the right path.

    ...it is also an argument of mine that all styles hold some value and I've found this is the most straight-forward way of presenting my point of view to that affect.
    "It is sobering to reflect that one of the best ways to get yourself a reputation as a dangerous citizen these days is to go about repeating the very phrases which our founding fathers used in the struggle for independence." Charles A. Beard

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    Default Re: Sport or Art

    Quote Originally Posted by Anoise View Post
    This may be the wrong place....there may already be a thread on this...

    What makes Martial Arts an art and not a sport? Or would you consider it a sport?

    I got into an argument with a friend about this. WHile he was willing to yeild that Tai Chi was an art, he wasn't so eager to consider the rest of it art. I told him Tai Chi had origins in fighting.
    I would not consider "Martial Arts" a sport. It can be very athletic, in that it causes you to dig down deep and TRY your hardest Physically. But I think of sport as being aimed at competition with others. You can engage in "Martial Sports"....full contact or point fighting, NHB type stuff....boxing, wrestling....etc., but these are different (though related) animals.

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    Default Re: Sport or Art

    Quote Originally Posted by Celtic_Crippler View Post
    I'm sure we could further break styles down into sub-categories. Shoot, you could definately write a book about it and it would be a great read! I just feel that the simple classifications are easier to grasp by most and if someone is looking for a style to fit their "needs" this approach can generally set them on the right path.

    ...it is also an argument of mine that all styles hold some value and I've found this is the most straight-forward way of presenting my point of view to that affect.
    Thank you Celtic.

    It's the old comparison story.

    This martial art X compared to that martial art Z compared to the other martial art M.

    My point being, to communicate what you do in a way that is understandable and "wanted" by the consumer is also very important.

    You get more and better clients.

    They get better training and good clarity with their training.

    All sorts of reasons for specifics on the benifits.

    Then again I did have this one "mentally challenged" lady that I admited into our school ONLY because I knew her father (a retired therapist) and I made it a part of the "deal" that he train with her for free so he could assist her at home.

    She really did need that extra feedback.

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    Kenpo Gary is offline
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    Default Re: Sport or Art

    I have judged at a lot of sport karate tournaments. The best competitors make the sport look like an art.

    Kenpo Gary
    "The heart of the Kenpo System has always been practical-effective- Self Defense Techniques." Al Tracy

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    Default Re: Sport or Art

    Quote Originally Posted by nelson View Post
    Dear Anoise:

    Im ny mind there is no question that Kenpo is a martial ART. Can it be also thought of as a sport? Absolutely!
    I did rethink my thinking on this after reading Nelson's comment...and I do agree with him 100%.

    That means BOTH.

    Here's why.

    In the context that Anoise used it, and that when spoken (or written) the concept Martial Art is referring to definition #2, "Skill. #3. Any specific skill or its application.

    So it means "skill in (defintion #2) warlike; brave; soldierly things".

    Dr. John M. La Tourrette
    I love Webster's.

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