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Thread: Is Chi the Holy Spirit?

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    Default Re: Is Chi the Holy Spirit?

    Words, words, and more words! Lol Let this topic go and we'll investigate what chi might be to the scientific community.

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    Default Re: Is Chi the Holy Spirit?

    I was going to go on a list of things, but figured I'd just share a link instead
    Primary sources are always helpful (in this case the bible) regarding their own topics.

    https://carm.org/verses-showing-iden...od-holy-spirit

    Specifically sections 3,4,5. This isn't some force to be exercised with proper posture, breathing, and mindset.
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    Default Re: Is Chi the Holy Spirit?

    I think this one has been as fleshed out as it can in this setting. Back to Kenpo!
    Be careful what you say, some may take it the wrong way.

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    Default Re: Is Chi the Holy Spirit?

    Quote Originally Posted by madeku View Post
    I was going to go on a list of things, but figured I'd just share a link instead
    Primary sources are always helpful (in this case the bible) regarding their own topics.

    https://carm.org/verses-showing-iden...od-holy-spirit

    Specifically sections 3,4,5. This isn't some force to be exercised with proper posture, breathing, and mindset.
    im not sure the Bible can be considered a primary source. I don’t believe there is anything in it recorded by the people who may have been witness to the events recorded. The writers wrote it some significant time later, from stories that were passed to them. Talking about the New Testament, there.

    the Old Testament is a collection of oral history passed along for generations, before it was written down. So no primary sources there.

    and then it went through some translations along the way. So today’s bible is distanced on many levels, from being a primary source.
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    Default Re: Is Chi the Holy Spirit?

    Quote Originally Posted by flying crane View Post
    im not sure the Bible can be considered a primary source. I don’t believe there is anything in it recorded by the people who may have been witness to the events recorded. The writers wrote it some significant time later, from stories that were passed to them. Talking about the New Testament, there.

    the Old Testament is a collection of oral history passed along for generations, before it was written down. So no primary sources there.

    and then it went through some translations along the way. So today’s bible is distanced on many levels, from being a primary source.
    The New Testament was written by people who either knew Jesus personally, or had encountered him or were under the direct supervision of one of Jesus' disciples. The gospels were all written before 70AD. The letters of Paul were all written prior to his death in 64AD. The books written by the disciple John were the latest and written around 80 AD. The death of Jesus would have been around 30-36AD.

    The New Testament has more manuscripts than ANY other ancient source. All of those manuscripts back up each other and there are NO theological points where they differ. Where the manuscript does differ between each other is in spelling or use of pronouns. For example, one manuscript may say something like "John went to the temple. After that, John went to the shore". Another manuscript may say, "John went to the temple. After that, he went to the shore". Now when counting those, if you have 50 say the first and 50 say the second, they will count it as 100 differences in the manuscripts. Now throw in that one may spell "John" as "Jon" and you add in even more "differences". But again, there are NO theological discrepancies between any of the manuscripts.

    The New Testament has around 5,800 Greek Manuscripts and around 18,000 other language translations. Currently, the oldest goes back to around 130AD, which is a gap of 60-70 years. To put that in perspective, The Gallic Wars written about Caeser was first written around 100-44 BC and the first manuscript we have was written in about 950 years after that and we only have 251 manuscripts for it. The Illiad has the most out of any other ancient text and the oldest we have was written 400 years after the original and we only have about 1800 copies.

    One of the key important passages in the NT is 1 Corinthians 15: 3-7

    3 For what I received I passed on to you as of first importance: that Christ died for our sins according to the Scriptures,
    4 that he was buried,that he was raised on the third day according to the Scriptures,5 and that he appeared to Cephas, and then to the Twelve.6 After that, he appeared to more than five hundred of the brothers and sisters at the same time, most of whom are still living, though some have fallen asleep.7 Then he appeared to James, then to all the apostles,
    This oral tradition that Paul talks about was, by conservative, estimates was in place about 3-5 years after Jesus' death. This demonstrates that the claims of his life and resurrection were there from the beginning and NOT an added "mythical addition" to Jesus' life as time went on as many have claimed.
    "For he is God's servant to do you good. But if you do wrong, be afraid, for he does not bear the sword for nothing. He is God's servant, an agent of wrath to bring punishment on the wrongdoer."

    Romans 13:4

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    Default Re: Is Chi the Holy Spirit?

    Quote Originally Posted by punisher73 View Post
    The New Testament was written by people who either knew Jesus personally, or had encountered him or were under the direct supervision of one of Jesus' disciples. The gospels were all written before 70AD. The letters of Paul were all written prior to his death in 64AD. The books written by the disciple John were the latest and written around 80 AD. The death of Jesus would have been around 30-36AD.
    ........
    This oral tradition that Paul talks about was, by conservative, estimates was in place about 3-5 years after Jesus' death. This demonstrates that the claims of his life and resurrection were there from the beginning and NOT an added "mythical addition" to Jesus' life as time went on as many have claimed.
    And Egyptian Pyramid texts that outline the Sacred Text of the Egyptian Ethos was written approximately 3100 B.C.E

    Also, Steven King first published the Dark Tower series in June of 1982 C.E.

    So...
    "Do you have any bactine? Some of this blood is mine."

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    Default Re: Is Chi the Holy Spirit?

    Quote Originally Posted by MrBunny View Post
    And Egyptian Pyramid texts that outline the Sacred Text of the Egyptian Ethos was written approximately 3100 B.C.E

    Also, Steven King first published the Dark Tower series in June of 1982 C.E.

    So...
    Relevance?

    A statement was made that there were no witnesses to the writings of the New Testament and that it was far removed to be used as a primary source. That statement was incorrect and supported that there were witnesses and they wrote it down very shortly after the event(s) There was also the claim about multiple translations changing what it has said through the years, which was also shown to be false. If you are trying to argue or disagree with the truth of the New Testament that is a different argument and not pertinent to the discussion or claim previously made.
    "For he is God's servant to do you good. But if you do wrong, be afraid, for he does not bear the sword for nothing. He is God's servant, an agent of wrath to bring punishment on the wrongdoer."

    Romans 13:4

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    Default Re: Is Chi the Holy Spirit?

    Quote Originally Posted by punisher73 View Post
    Relevance?

    A statement was made that there were no witnesses to the writings of the New Testament and that it was far removed to be used as a primary source. That statement was incorrect and supported that there were witnesses and they wrote it down very shortly after the event(s) There was also the claim about multiple translations changing what it has said through the years, which was also shown to be false. If you are trying to argue or disagree with the truth of the New Testament that is a different argument and not pertinent to the discussion or claim previously made.
    Fair, however somewhat flawed.. particularly in the translation issue.

    Your example takes into account difference in pronoun .. fair enough.. but does not take into account cultural significance of language and interpretation modern as well as within period.

    Example.. Virgin.. modern interpretation meaning one who has not had sex or more specifically vaginal penetration.

    However..

    Almah (עַלְמָה 'almāh, plural: עֲלָמוֹת 'ălāmōṯ), from a root implying the vigour of puberty, is a Hebrew word for a young woman of childbearing age.

    or

    bethulah, from a root meaning "separated," is "a woman living apart," i.e. "in her father's house," and hence "a virgin." Bethulah seems to have been the technical term for "virgin," as appears from such a combination as na`arah bhethulah, "a damsel, a virgin,

    However, Matthew who wrote in Greek would translate the Hebrew Alma into parthenos often considered to mean young woman, but also into the modern interpretation of virgin and thus resulting into a belief of parthenogenesis.

    So... in short, it would appear that you are attempting to use a common standard of language structure to insinuate a more broad acceptance of unchanging interpretation of meaning.

    Tisk tisk... don't do that.. .

    Bunbun
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    -JTHM

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    Default Re: Is Chi the Holy Spirit?

    Quote Originally Posted by MrBunny View Post
    Fair, however somewhat flawed.. particularly in the translation issue.
    Your example takes into account difference in pronoun .. fair enough.. but does not take into account cultural significance of language and interpretation modern as well as within period.
    Example.. Virgin.. modern interpretation meaning one who has not had sex or more specifically vaginal penetration.

    However..

    Almah (עַלְמָה 'almāh, plural: עֲלָמוֹת 'ălāmōṯ), from a root implying the vigour of puberty, is a Hebrew word for a young woman of childbearing age.
    or
    bethulah, from a root meaning "separated," is "a woman living apart," i.e. "in her father's house," and hence "a virgin." Bethulah seems to have been the technical term for "virgin," as appears from such a combination as na`arah bhethulah, "a damsel, a virgin,

    However, Matthew who wrote in Greek would translate the Hebrew Alma into parthenos often considered to mean young woman, but also into the modern interpretation of virgin and thus resulting into a belief of parthenogenesis.

    So... in short, it would appear that you are attempting to use a common standard of language structure to insinuate a more broad acceptance of unchanging interpretation of meaning.

    Tisk tisk... don't do that.. .

    Bunbun
    The word "almah" is only used in the Old Testament a total of 10 times. The word denoted a young woman who was of marriageable age. Culturally, a young woman of marriageable age would be presumed to be chaste, or a virgin. In fact, the word itself "virgin" in English used to mean "maiden, young unmarried girl" (from the Latin virginem) it was a cultural implication of the word itself even in English that they hadn't had sexual intercourse. Using the word, "almah" had a specific usage.. 1) female 2) She was young 3) She was of the age to be married. The word, "bethualah" only meant a woman who hadn't had intercourse, it had nothing to do with her age. So, you could be "almah" and "bethulah", but not necessarily "bethulah" and "almah" if you were a spinster.

    Jewish scholars finished translating the Tannakh (old testament) into Greek around 132 BC, called the "Septuagent". They rendered the word "almah" into "parthenos", the greek word for "virgin". They also used "parthenos" in place of "na'arah" which meant "young girl". So, even prior to the birth of Jesus there was a usage of "almah" being used to denote both "virgin" and "young woman".

    So, I am not attempting to use a more common language structure to justify a belief in the virgin birth. The language in regards to "virgin" was there from the beginning.
    "For he is God's servant to do you good. But if you do wrong, be afraid, for he does not bear the sword for nothing. He is God's servant, an agent of wrath to bring punishment on the wrongdoer."

    Romans 13:4

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    Default Re: Is Chi the Holy Spirit?

    Quote Originally Posted by flying crane View Post
    im not sure the Bible can be considered a primary source. I don’t believe there is anything in it recorded by the people who may have been witness to the events recorded. The writers wrote it some significant time later, from stories that were passed to them. Talking about the New Testament, there.

    the Old Testament is a collection of oral history passed along for generations, before it was written down. So no primary sources there.

    and then it went through some translations along the way. So today’s bible is distanced on many levels, from being a primary source.
    aside from the who/when aspects of writing (which is a different can of worms related to textual criticism, history, etc) the fact remains it's a primary source for Christian theology, as such who/what the Holy Spirit is.
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    Default Re: Is Chi the Holy Spirit?

    Quote Originally Posted by madeku View Post
    aside from the who/when aspects of writing (which is a different can of worms related to textual criticism, history, etc) the fact remains it's a primary source for Christian theology, as such who/what the Holy Spirit is.
    Yes, I can agree with that. In terms of “what is the Holy Spirit within the context of the Judeo-Christian traditions”, the Bible would certainly be the authority.
    Michael


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    Default Re: Is Chi the Holy Spirit?

    Im sorry that I started this thread! Punisher you've got the ball!

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    Default Re: Is Chi the Holy Spirit?

    Quote Originally Posted by nelson View Post
    Im sorry that I started this thread! Punisher you've got the ball!
    Naw, I’m good. The original premise is pretty much answered. Not wanting to spend any more time on the Bible and the side tan
    "For he is God's servant to do you good. But if you do wrong, be afraid, for he does not bear the sword for nothing. He is God's servant, an agent of wrath to bring punishment on the wrongdoer."

    Romans 13:4

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    Default Re: Is Chi the Holy Spirit?

    Should have been side tangent
    "For he is God's servant to do you good. But if you do wrong, be afraid, for he does not bear the sword for nothing. He is God's servant, an agent of wrath to bring punishment on the wrongdoer."

    Romans 13:4

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    Default Re: Is Chi the Holy Spirit?

    Quote Originally Posted by nelson View Post
    Im sorry that I started this thread! Punisher you've got the ball!
    No reason you should be sorry, it's in the correct topic category and opens some good debate.

    Thing is the original question is asking for a quantifiable correlational between philosophical and/or theological concepts.

    The only thing we can really know is that the human body has and is dependent bio-electrical impulse. "Luminous beings are we.." What that signifies.. does it have greater meaning... thats the unknown..

    Bunbun
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    -JTHM

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    Default Re: Is Chi the Holy Spirit?

    Quote Originally Posted by flying crane View Post
    And to tag into this, if chi were the Holy Spirit, it would imply that the way to get some special powers from a divine entity is to do some physical exercises coupled with deep breathing. Somehow that just does not pass my BS sniffer.
    Funny you mementioned that... That's exactly what practitioners of martial arts and qigong have been doing since millennia in China.

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    Default Re: Is Chi the Holy Spirit?

    Quote Originally Posted by punisher73 View Post
    You are making the mistake that many westerners make when looking at the early Christian beliefs and how it was interpreted later. Judaism/Christianity is a near-eastern religion and NOT a western religion. The Jews of Jesus' time understood that the body and spirit are a whole and linked together, they did NOT view them as separate entities, or as the Greeks would have phrased it, a spirit trapped in a physical body. So, to properly view what Jesus taught about the Holy Spirit etc. it must be viewed through that lens and not the lens of later Greek thought.
    If they had not looked at body and spirit as two separate and separable entities (though intimately connected during life), they would have had to think of physical death as the end of one's existence. That's essentially an Atheist position which I doubt they shared.

    In my opinion, Christianity's alliance with neo-Platonism and other Greek thought served the purpose of fleshing out what had already been implied in the scriptures.

    Not to forget that the authors of the New Testament in some cases were influenced by Greek-inspired thought permeating the Middle East at the time.

    The Holy Spirit was a spiritual copy (greek word "allos" meaning "equal quality") of what Jesus himself was. Jesus told the disciples that when he was gone, the Holy Spirit would come and would take the same place for them that Jesus had with them to teach and guide them. In fact, when Jesus tells the disciples about the sending of the Holy Spirit, he uses the word(s) "allos parakletos", which roughly translates as a comforter, helper, advocate. The Jewish concept was someone who gives aid to those in need.
    That the Holy Spirit was of 'equal quality' like Jesus does not suggest it to be his copy. However, it may suggest that Jesus was essentially an incarnation of the Holy Spirit.

    I believe that you assume incorrectly that Jesus was calling on the Holy Spirit. NO WHERE in any of the Gospels does Jesus call out to anyone but "the Father" for help or aid.
    The Soul of the World is a messenger of the 'Intellect' (read: mind) of the World in neo-Platonist philosophy. In light of my equation it makes sense that Jesus would call out to the Father, and the help would then be conveyed by the Holy Spirit. Remember that the three aspects of the Trinity are united with each other according to Christian theology.

    The apostle Paul further illuminates the Holy Spirit and tells us about the "GIFTS of the Spirit" and also that not everyone will have these. Later, he talks about how you can tell a person is full of the Holy Spirit by the FRUIT (not plural) of the Spirit (love, joy, peace, patience etc.).

    The Gospels and the rest of the New Testament is clear that you petition, God the Father, with your requests. It is always separate from the "ruach/pnuema" usages for spirit.

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    Default Re: Is Chi the Holy Spirit?

    Quote Originally Posted by punisher73 View Post
    It does have a "real answer" and is not a matter of semantics or personal view. There is a specific definition of "Chi" as the Chinese defined it. There is also a description and definition of the "Holy Spirit" as he is defined in the New Testament. IF you change either of those definitions to what you want it to mean for your own personal view, then you can make it fit. It doesn't match with what the real answer is though.

    There are many concepts in the esoteric studies that have redefined Christian (and other religions) ideas to fit and appeal to a larger audience. It is one thing to say that there is a life force that inhabits all things through the creation of God (something I would agree with) and quite another to make the leap and say that the Chinese were really talking about the Holy Spirit when they spoke of Chi, or that the Holy Spirit IS Chi.
    When it comes to such intangible concepts, there is no way you can claim your answer to be the only valid ( "real") one. There will always be room left for interpretation. That is because a text can do no more than to hint at a metaphysical reality that defies verbal description, after all.

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    Default Re: Is Chi the Holy Spirit?

    Quote Originally Posted by MrBunny View Post
    Now, that said... if one were referring to a specific object and said that it is not a specific thing then you give almost infinite possibility of what it could be.. I say almost because of all that it could be, it is not what it is defined not to be.

    This is not the same as stating that a concept or thing cannot be defined as being limited by its non-state... by its nature of limitless possibility it cannot not be defined due to paradox.

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    Default Re: Is Chi the Holy Spirit?

    Quote Originally Posted by MrBunny View Post
    No reason you should be sorry, it's in the correct topic category and opens some good debate.
    I agree. There should definitely be room in this forum for a discussion of that kind of metaphysical topic. Such topics have always been linked to the martial arts and, as a matter of fact, Mr. Parker was rather fond of them.

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