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Thread: Is Chi the Holy Spirit?

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    Default Re: Is Chi the Holy Spirit?

    Quote Originally Posted by punisher73 View Post
    Short answer "No" as "chi" was defined by the Chinese.

    Obi Wan Kenobi: The Force is what gives a Jedi his power. It's an energy field created by all living things. It surrounds us and penetrates us. It binds the galaxy together.

    "Chi" matches the Star Wars definition of the "force" in many aspects. It would NOT match the idea of the Holy Spirit, as taught by Christianity. The Holy Spirit is a PART of God manifest for us to be able to understand, when Jesus talked about the Holy Spirit coming after he was gone, he used the word "another" which meant an exact replica or copy. The Holy Spirit is not something outside that can be controlled and manipulated by our wishes.

    And to tag into this, if chi were the Holy Spirit, it would imply that the way to get some special powers from a divine entity is to do some physical exercises coupled with deep breathing. Somehow that just does not pass my BS sniffer.
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    Default Re: Is Chi the Holy Spirit?

    Not really Michael read Mitsugi Saotome for a different perspective. Don't dismiss as hogwash until you look into the trough!

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    Default Re: Is Chi the Holy Spirit?

    Quote Originally Posted by nelson View Post
    Not really Michael read Mitsugi Saotome for a different perspective. Don't dismiss as hogwash until you look into the trough!
    I’ve never heard of him, although I just read a very short bio of him on Wikipedia since you mention him. Could you summarize his position, or what he feels are the important points? Though to be honest, I cannot imagine how it will make a difference.
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    Default Re: Is Chi the Holy Spirit?

    If I could summarize him I'd be famous! Lol

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    Default Re: Is Chi the Holy Spirit?

    Quote Originally Posted by punisher73 View Post
    Short answer "No" as "chi" was defined by the Chinese.

    Obi Wan Kenobi: The Force is what gives a Jedi his power. It's an energy field created by all living things. It surrounds us and penetrates us. It binds the galaxy together.

    "Chi" matches the Star Wars definition of the "force" in many aspects. It would NOT match the idea of the Holy Spirit, as taught by Christianity. The Holy Spirit is a PART of God manifest for us to be able to understand,


    The world view adopted by Christianity was essentially the neo-Platonic cosmological model, in which the world has a body, a spirit or soul, and a mind. And these three can be seen as representing the Son, the Holy Spirit, and the Father.

    when Jesus talked about the Holy Spirit coming after he was gone, he used the word "another" which meant an exact replica or copy.


    A copy of what?

    The Holy Spirit is not something outside that can be controlled and manipulated by our wishes.


    I would assume that Jesus was calling on the Holy Spirit (the universal vital force field) to perform his healings and other miracles.

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    Default Re: Is Chi the Holy Spirit?

    Quote Originally Posted by Star Dragon View Post


    The world view adopted by Christianity was essentially the neo-Platonic cosmological model, in which the world has a body, a spirit or soul, and a mind. And these three can be seen as representing the Son, the Holy Spirit, and the Father.



    A copy of what?



    I would assume that Jesus was calling on the Holy Spirit (the universal vital force field) to perform his healings and other miracles.
    You are making the mistake that many westerners make when looking at the early Christian beliefs and how it was interpreted later. Judaism/Christianity is a near-eastern religion and NOT a western religion. The Jews of Jesus' time understood that the body and spirit are a whole and linked together, they did NOT view them as separate entities, or as the Greeks would have phrased it, a spirit trapped in a physical body. So, to properly view what Jesus taught about the Holy Spirit etc. it must be viewed through that lens and not the lens of later Greek thought.

    The Holy Spirit was a spiritual copy (greek word "allos" meaning "equal quality") of what Jesus himself was. Jesus told the disciples that when he was gone, the Holy Spirit would come and would take the same place for them that Jesus had with them to teach and guide them. In fact, when Jesus tells the disciples about the sending of the Holy Spirit, he uses the word(s) "allos parakletos", which roughly translates as a comforter, helper, advocate. The Jewish concept was someone who gives aid to those in need.

    I believe that you assume incorrectly that Jesus was calling on the Holy Spirit. NO WHERE in any of the Gospels does Jesus call out to anyone but "the Father" for help or aid.

    The apostle Paul further illuminates the Holy Spirit and tells us about the "GIFTS of the Spirit" and also that not everyone will have these. Later, he talks about how you can tell a person is full of the Holy Spirit by the FRUIT (not plural) of the Spirit (love, joy, peace, patience etc.).

    The Gospels and the rest of the New Testament is clear that you petition, God the Father, with your requests. It is always separate from the "ruach/pnuema" usages for spirit.
    "For he is God's servant to do you good. But if you do wrong, be afraid, for he does not bear the sword for nothing. He is God's servant, an agent of wrath to bring punishment on the wrongdoer."

    Romans 13:4

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    Default Re: Is Chi the Holy Spirit?

    Actually it is "gift" of the Holy Spirit not "gifts".

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    Default Re: Is Chi the Holy Spirit?

    Quote Originally Posted by nelson View Post
    Actually it is "gift" of the Holy Spirit not "gifts".
    You would be incorrect in that.

    The Apostle Paul is very clear that it is "gifts" and there are more than one and not everyone gets every gift.

    Here is 1 Corinthians 12: 1-11 where Paul talks about the gifts of the Spirit.

    "Now about the gifts of the Spirit, brothers and sisters, I do not want you to be uninformed. You know that when you were pagans, somehow or other you were influenced and led astray to mute idols. Therefore I want you to know that no one who is speaking by the Spirit of God says, “Jesus be cursed,” and no one can say, “Jesus is Lord,” except by the Holy Spirit. There are different kinds of gifts, but the same Spirit distributes them.There are different kinds of service, but the same Lord. There are different kinds of working, but in all of them and in everyone it is the same God at work. Now to each one the manifestation of the Spirit is given for the common good. To one there is given through the Spirit a message of wisdom, to another a message of knowledge by means of the same Spirit, to another faith by the same Spirit, to another gifts of healing by that one Spirit, to another miraculous powers, to another prophecy, to another distinguishing between spirits, to another speaking in different kinds of tongues, and to still another the interpretation of tongues. All these are the work of one and the same Spirit, and he distributes them to each one, just as he determines."

    This is NOT just merely semantics of "gift" versus "gifts", it is a MAJOR theological point in the work of the Holy Spirit. Paul clearly states that there are multiple gifts and that they are given out by the Holy Spirit to do God's work. In certain Christian denominations they teach that the gift of "speaking in tongues" is the mark of someone baptized in the Holy Spirit. There is no scriptural backing for this interpretation when you understand that they are the GIFTS of the Holy Spirit. If all of those things listed are the GIFT of the Holy Spirit, then all Christians should be able to do all of those things.
    "For he is God's servant to do you good. But if you do wrong, be afraid, for he does not bear the sword for nothing. He is God's servant, an agent of wrath to bring punishment on the wrongdoer."

    Romans 13:4

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    Default Re: Is Chi the Holy Spirit?

    Acts 2:38 .

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    Default Re: Is Chi the Holy Spirit?

    Quote Originally Posted by nelson View Post
    Acts 2:38 .
    Acts 2: 38-39 Peter replied, “Repent and be baptized, every one of you, in the name of Jesus Christ for the forgiveness of your sins. And you will receive the gift of the Holy Spirit. The promise is for you and your children and for all who are far off—for all whom the Lord our God will call.”

    The verse is taken out of context and is not at all what Peter is saying. Peter is telling everyone at Pentecost, which is a key event because it is the first time the Holy Spirit is given to the masses as Jesus promised. Peter tells them to repent and accept Jesus's sacrifice and when they do, they will be given the gift of the Holy Spirit. The Holy Spirit in this context and verse is the gift (This is also echoed in Acts 5:32 "We are witnesses of these things, and so is the Holy Spirit, whom God has given to those who obey him.”). It is not illuminating or describing the work of the Holy Spirit and what it does in a believer's life. It is NOT talking about the gifts that are given BY the Holy Spirit. The phrase used in Greek is "tou hagiou pnuematos" and its grammatical meaning is that the Holy Spirit is the gift. Contextually elsewhere in the New Testament this is also supported that you are given the Holy Spirit after repentance from your sins. The indwelling of the Holy Spirit manifests itself in our lives through it's Fruit (love, joy, peace, etc.). The Holy Spirit gives different gifts to different people for God's will and purpose.

    Contextually, the idea of only one "gift" is not supported in the original text and early church and was added theologically much later (early 1900's when the Pentecostal movement began where the gifts of the Spirit were the sign that you had been baptized by the Spirit).

    Also, another commonly misquoted text is from the end of Mark 16:17-18.

    "These signs will accompany those who have believed: in My name they will cast out demons, they will speak with new tongues; they will pick up serpents, and if they drink any deadly poison, it will not hurt them; they will lay hands on the sick, and they will recover,"

    The verse taken alone is commonly quoted to show that if you have the Holy Spirit, you will be able to do all of those things. Again, these verses must be taken into context with the preceding couple of verses. Mark 16:14-15

    "And He said to them, 'Go into all the world and preach the gospel to all creation. He who has believed and has been baptized shall be saved; but he who has disbelieved shall be condemned,'"

    Notice that the context is singular for an individual believer who has been saved. Now he says, that with multiple believers you will see all of these signs and lists them out. Later in the book of Acts, all of those things come to pass. Contextually, there is a separation from the single believer and the group of believers when it comes to the signs. If the meaning and intent was that all believers would be able to do these miraculous things, it would have continued with the singular pronoun and say "these signs will accompany he who has believed ..."
    "For he is God's servant to do you good. But if you do wrong, be afraid, for he does not bear the sword for nothing. He is God's servant, an agent of wrath to bring punishment on the wrongdoer."

    Romans 13:4

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    Default Re: Is Chi the Holy Spirit?

    Quote Originally Posted by Doc View Post
    That's a bunch of Sweet Honey In Tea.
    happen to like Honey... you can turn it into mead.

    This type of question has no real answer and often devolves into a matter of semantics and personal view.. Chi, Energy, spirit, air, life.. Holy spirit, faith, aspect of god, Tao, the undefined. etc etc etc... is one an aspect or embodiment of another.. is one concept without specific definition part of or the same as another concept without specific definition?

    Really?

    *shakes head* then you get into the discussion of Fact vs Truth... very different things...

    So I say... just punch them... and move on.

    The Bun bun.. the undefined eternal bunny...

    The Tao of bunny.
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    Default Re: Is Chi the Holy Spirit?

    Quote Originally Posted by MrBunny View Post
    happen to like Honey... you can turn it into mead.

    This type of question has no real answer and often devolves into a matter of semantics and personal view.. Chi, Energy, spirit, air, life.. Holy spirit, faith, aspect of god, Tao, the undefined. etc etc etc... is one an aspect or embodiment of another.. is one concept without specific definition part of or the same as another concept without specific definition?

    Really?
    It does have a "real answer" and is not a matter of semantics or personal view. There is a specific definition of "Chi" as the Chinese defined it. There is also a description and definition of the "Holy Spirit" as he is defined in the New Testament. IF you change either of those definitions to what you want it to mean for your own personal view, then you can make it fit. It doesn't match with what the real answer is though.

    There are many concepts in the esoteric studies that have redefined Christian (and other religions) ideas to fit and appeal to a larger audience. It is one thing to say that there is a life force that inhabits all things through the creation of God (something I would agree with) and quite another to make the leap and say that the Chinese were really talking about the Holy Spirit when they spoke of Chi, or that the Holy Spirit IS Chi.
    "For he is God's servant to do you good. But if you do wrong, be afraid, for he does not bear the sword for nothing. He is God's servant, an agent of wrath to bring punishment on the wrongdoer."

    Romans 13:4

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    Default Re: Is Chi the Holy Spirit?

    Quote Originally Posted by punisher73 View Post
    It does have a "real answer" and is not a matter of semantics or personal view. There is a specific definition of "Chi" as the Chinese defined it. There is also a description and definition of the "Holy Spirit" as he is defined in the New Testament. IF you change either of those definitions to what you want it to mean for your own personal view, then you can make it fit. It doesn't match with what the real answer is though.

    There are many concepts in the esoteric studies that have redefined Christian (and other religions) ideas to fit and appeal to a larger audience. It is one thing to say that there is a life force that inhabits all things through the creation of God (something I would agree with) and quite another to make the leap and say that the Chinese were really talking about the Holy Spirit when they spoke of Chi, or that the Holy Spirit IS Chi.
    Do you realize you just contradicted your own statement in less than the first 50 words? "not a matter of semantics or personal view" followed by "as the Chinese defined it" It is a matter of personal view because it is defined by a cultural ideal. Holy Spirit being defined by a Dogma that relies on it's own definition to support it's ideal.. Yea... cause that's not going to originate from a personal unbiased view. (do you hear that? that is the sound of dripping sarcasm)

    Interesting choice of words... "It is one thing to say that there is a life force that inhabits all things through the creation of God" I would very much agree that the creation of God was to explain the nature of life. Particularly by those who have trouble conceiving of the undefinable.

    Also you would have to define "real answer"... to some.. an invisible flying spaghetti monster is a "real answer"

    Bunbun
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    Default Re: Is Chi the Holy Spirit?

    Keep in mind, we cannot even pin down a specific definition of what it is to be alive without massive debate between ideologies or scientific schools of thought. Aristotle to Carl Sagan, Virologists to Chemists to physicists.. all ponder this.. if we cannot even come down to what it is to be alive.. how could you possible claim that there is a simple real answer to such esoteric concepts such as Chi and a theological invention of the Holy Spirit?

    Bunners.
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    -JTHM

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    Default Re: Is Chi the Holy Spirit?

    Quote Originally Posted by MrBunny View Post
    Do you realize you just contradicted your own statement in less than the first 50 words? "not a matter of semantics or personal view" followed by "as the Chinese defined it" It is a matter of personal view because it is defined by a cultural ideal. Holy Spirit being defined by a Dogma that relies on it's own definition to support it's ideal.. Yea... cause that's not going to originate from a personal unbiased view. (do you hear that? that is the sound of dripping sarcasm)

    Interesting choice of words... "It is one thing to say that there is a life force that inhabits all things through the creation of God" I would very much agree that the creation of God was to explain the nature of life. Particularly by those who have trouble conceiving of the undefinable.

    Also you would have to define "real answer"... to some.. an invisible flying spaghetti monster is a "real answer"

    Bunbun
    The intent was that through God, all things were created. Not the best wording for clarity.

    It's not a contradiction at all at what I said. Words ALL have definitions. People come to an agreement on what the words mean. In the context of that, chi is not the Holy Spirit unless you (generic) change the definition of the Christian concept of the Holy Spirit. That becomes the problem of the bigger question that, I believe, you are addressing. Is there a life force and what is it, what does it do? As you said, what is it to be alive?

    Part of a discussion like this, is that you come to the table with the belief of the original comparison. If you don't believe in the Bible and what it says about the Holy Spirit, you end up debating a different issue about the validity and definition in general of the Holy Spirit and who he is, which was not the original topic. The questions you are asking and the viewpoint you are talking about is very valid, but not what this discussion is about unless the parameters are changed. My understanding of his questions based on previous discussions with Nelson (correct me if I'm wrong Nelson) is that he was coming from this question from the Christian viewpoint, so my answers and responses were framed from that background about the Holy Spirit and accepted beliefs within the Christian community.

    I actually do agree with many of your responses in regards to a bigger picture, such as, is the Christian concept of God/Holy Spirit correct, and how can we know that? Are other religions correct in their belief? Is God a creation from man to personalize and impersonal universe? What is chi/life force? How is it all interconnected? But, again, I wasn't reading the original question from this broad overview. If it was mean that way, then you would be right that there isn't a "real answer" because it would be based on faith of each person.
    "For he is God's servant to do you good. But if you do wrong, be afraid, for he does not bear the sword for nothing. He is God's servant, an agent of wrath to bring punishment on the wrongdoer."

    Romans 13:4

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    Default Re: Is Chi the Holy Spirit?

    I suppose I look at the original question and see is X = Y when X= undefined and unknowable and Y= undefined and unknowable.

    As a Taoist I see the potential of it being true but ultimately unknown and frankly irrelevant because even if it is... first would the discovery of it change who you are or what you do, second.. does it change who you have been, third.. why limit it by putting such binding definitions to it?

    Bunners
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    Default Re: Is Chi the Holy Spirit?

    Thanks Nelson. When we get back to Kenpo, I’ll be back.
    www.trianglekenpo.com

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    Default Re: Is Chi the Holy Spirit?

    If something is proclaimed as " undefined and unknowable" you've just defined it!
    Last edited by KirkS; 03-22-2019 at 10:02 AM.

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    Default Re: Is Chi the Holy Spirit?

    Quote Originally Posted by nelson View Post
    If something is proclaimed as " undefined and unknowable" you've just defined it!
    Perhaps you don't know what "undefined" means.

    First Definition is not the same as a description..

    Second.. stating what something isn't is not the same as stating what something is, though the inverse is not true. For when you state what something is, then you limit it by what it is not.

    Thanks for playing,

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    Default Re: Is Chi the Holy Spirit?

    Now, that said... if one were referring to a specific object and said that it is not a specific thing then you give almost infinite possibility of what it could be.. I say almost because of all that it could be, it is not what it is defined not to be.

    This is not the same as stating that a concept or thing cannot be defined as being limited by its non-state... by its nature of limitless possibility it cannot not be defined due to paradox.

    Bunny
    Last edited by MrBunny; 03-22-2019 at 11:10 AM. Reason: typo
    "Do you have any bactine? Some of this blood is mine."

    "Dear Die-ary, today I stuffed some dolls full of dead rats I put in the blender. I'm wondering if, maybe, there really is something wrong with me."

    -JTHM

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