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Thread: cover outs

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    kwikarlo is offline
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    Default cover outs

    Hi all,

    Being as I'm relatively new to kenpo, and have not yet tested for my purple belt, could you all give me a good discription of the mechanics of a cover out vs a double cover out?
    Thanks for your help.
    Karl

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    Default Re: cover outs

    the only difference is another step out after you crossover/coverout
    Brian Sheets
    VKKSI Kenpo 1st Black

    Only a warrior chooses pacifism; others are condemned to it." ~ Unknown
    "Don't hit at all if it is honorably possible to avoid hitting, but never hit soft." Theodore Roosevelt



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    Default Re: cover outs

    First let us review a couple of basic foot manuevers.

    The Step Through Foot Manuever ... gains or looses distance by one step, and switches which side is facing our opponent.

    Example: If we are in a stance with our left foot forward, and we move our right foot forward to the front position, we have completed a Step Through Foot Manuever. We are now closer to our opponent, with the opposite foot forward. Step Through Foot Manuevers can also be Reverse steps, which bring us away from our opponent. (this manuever is like walking)

    The Front Crossover Foot Manuever ... gains or looses distance by one step, and keeps the same side facing our opponent.

    Example: If we are in a stance with our left foot forward, and we move our right foot from the back, forward, placing our right heel, just to the left of our left toes, we are in a 'front twist' stance. We continue the manuever by bringing our left foot from behind our right foot, forward to the appropriate stance depth. This foot manuever can also move in a Forward or Reverse direction, gaining or loosing distance. It is called a 'Front' crossover foot manuever because the first foot to move goes in front of the supporting foot (which is the second foot to move).

    In order to understand the 'Cover Out', and 'Double Cover Out', you must fully grasp these to Basics: The Step Through Foot Maneuver and the Front Crossover Foot Manuever.


    A Cover Out is a Reverse Front Crossover Foot Manuever followed by a Reverse Step Through Foot Manuever.

    A Double Cover Out is a Reverse Front Crossover Foot Manuever, followed by a Reverse Step Through Foot Manuever, followed by a Reverse Front Crossover Foot Manuever.


    Rule - Never do a step through before a crossover.

    The Double Cover out creates greater distance, and allows you to survey 360 degrees from your position for any additional threat.


    kwikarlo, do you know why we use a 'front crossover', as opposed to a 'rear crossover'? Do you understand the difference between a 'front crossover' and a 'rear crossover'?

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    kwikarlo is offline
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    Default Re: cover outs

    Brian,
    Doesn't that next step just open you back up to attack? I guess I need a " step off to 11:00 into a LNB" type of description. If you wouldn't mind starting with a tech, let's just say Thunder and Lightning, and describe a cover out and a double cover out, like I'm 5yrs old. Which I sometimes feel like learning MA. I know I'll get this material with my next video lesson, but I'd like to get a little head start on it.
    Thanks, Karl

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    Default Re: cover outs

    michaeledward,
    Thanks for your very descriptive answer. I was in the middle of my last post and got interupted, and got your answer after I posted.
    Yes, I understand the the difference between a rear cross over(rear foot steps behind the front foot), and a front cross over, which you described well. I understand the front cross over to be more stable and maneuverable than the rear. Also, you would be less likely to get your legs
    all tangled up if you had to move quickly to another person or tech.
    Your reply helped a lot.
    Thanks, Karl

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    Default Re: cover outs

    Quote Originally Posted by kwikarlo View Post
    yes, I understand the the difference between a rear cross over(rear foot steps behind the front foot), and a front cross over, which you described well. I understand the front cross over to be more stable and maneuverable than the rear. Also, you would be less likely to get your legs
    all tangled up if you had to move quickly to another person or tech.
    Your reply helped a lot.
    Thanks, Karl
    a front crossover also protects the groin in about 99% of the time.. at least of the situations that i can think of at the moment.

    [quote]Rule - Never do a step through before a crossover.[quote]
    very good rule.. but iv only seen one exception to this, and that was on a downed attacker on their back.. if you crossover and you're right next to their side, he may be able to grab and pull you off balance..

    lets say his body is facing 6 and 9.... you're facing 12 right next to him, like your leg is touching his body... in a RNB.. if you do a crossover (front or rear) you're still within range of his arms or legs.. iv seen it done a stepthru reverse, then crossover coverout. you've cleared his weapons, then you survey.
    Brian Sheets
    VKKSI Kenpo 1st Black

    Only a warrior chooses pacifism; others are condemned to it." ~ Unknown
    "Don't hit at all if it is honorably possible to avoid hitting, but never hit soft." Theodore Roosevelt



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    Default Re: cover outs

    kwikarlo, there are a couple of other things to consider when deciding to choose between a front crossover and a rear crossover. I do believe that both foot manuevers are equally effective in their use. With practice, I think you will find that you need not get 'tangled up' when using a rear crossover.

    In your two posts preceeding this response, you hit exactly upon one of the reasons why we would use a rear crossover. Look at the first sentence in your reply to Brian. Remember, we can move toward or away from our opponent with these foot manuevers.

    Next time you are on a big mat, try this.

    Do a sequence of 6 Front Crossover Foot Manuevers.
    Do a sequence of 6 Rear Crossover Foot Manuevers.
    Do a sequence of 6 Reverse Front Crossover Foot Manuevers.
    Do a sequence of 6 Reverse Rear Crossover Foot Manuevers.

    Think carefully about how you might use these with an opponent in front of you. What do you find?

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    Default Re: cover outs

    Quote Originally Posted by kwikarlo View Post
    Brian,
    Doesn't that next step just open you back up to attack? I guess I need a " step off to 11:00 into a LNB" type of description. If you wouldn't mind starting with a tech, let's just say Thunder and Lightning, and describe a cover out and a double cover out, like I'm 5yrs old. Which I sometimes feel like learning MA. I know I'll get this material with my next video lesson, but I'd like to get a little head start on it.
    Thanks, Karl
    sorry bout that.. if you're in a right neutral bow and you do a front rear crossover, and cover out (step out and keep your hands up).. you've created some distance and you're in a left neutral bow.. a double cover out, is a stepthru reverse at the end of that step out... so you would step/slide the left foot back, and you're in a right neutral bow, and created more distance. facing the same direction as before. i hope thats a little more descriptive?
    Brian Sheets
    VKKSI Kenpo 1st Black

    Only a warrior chooses pacifism; others are condemned to it." ~ Unknown
    "Don't hit at all if it is honorably possible to avoid hitting, but never hit soft." Theodore Roosevelt



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    Default Re: cover outs

    Quote Originally Posted by madeku View Post
    a front crossover also protects the groin in about 99% of the time.. at least of the situations that i can think of at the moment.
    What if you are moving toward the attacker?

    Just a question to make you think.

    Maybe that 99% of the time, should be 49% of the time?

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    Default Re: cover outs

    A single cover out permits you 180 degrees of peripheral vision. A double cover out permits you a full 360 degree sweep of your environment. Too many cover outs are spent gazing at a downed partner rather than gleaning an understanding of one's surroundings, largely because the training mats are known to be safe from unknowns. Practice maintaining awareness of of your immediate environment by sweeping the entire area with your eyes as you cover.

    Cheers,

    Steven Brown
    UKF

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    Default Re: cover outs

    Quote Originally Posted by bujuts View Post
    A single cover out permits you 180 degrees of peripheral vision. A double cover out permits you a full 360 degree sweep of your environment. Too many cover outs are spent gazing at a downed partner rather than gleaning an understanding of one's surroundings, largely because the training mats are known to be safe from unknowns. Practice maintaining awareness of of your immediate environment by sweeping the entire area with your eyes as you cover.

    Cheers,

    Steven Brown
    UKF
    Beat me to it....what he said
    "It is sobering to reflect that one of the best ways to get yourself a reputation as a dangerous citizen these days is to go about repeating the very phrases which our founding fathers used in the struggle for independence." Charles A. Beard

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    Default Re: cover outs

    Quote Originally Posted by bujuts View Post
    A single cover out permits you 180 degrees of peripheral vision. A double cover out permits you a full 360 degree sweep of your environment. Too many cover outs are spent gazing at a downed partner rather than gleaning an understanding of one's surroundings, largely because the training mats are known to be safe from unknowns. Practice maintaining awareness of of your immediate environment by sweeping the entire area with your eyes as you cover.

    Cheers,

    Steven Brown
    UKF
    Why was I never taught this before?

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    Default Re: cover outs

    Quote Originally Posted by jjpregler View Post
    Why was I never taught this before?
    That's a very good question. Maybe you didn't ask or maybe your teacher was focusing on something else. I would bring it up in class.
    Sean

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    Default Re: cover outs

    Quote Originally Posted by jjpregler View Post
    Why was I never taught this before?


    Its also interesting to understand peripheral awareness when performing techniques. In Delayed Sword for example, our peripheral vision can cover approximately 9:00 to 3:00, depending of course on the orientation of the head. Utilize a right twist stance, you gain clarity of up to 4:00 or so. Reverse bow, up to 6:00 in some cases. The capacity to maintain clarity of the immediate environment while staying engaged with a body is a critical platform for dealing with multiple assailants. At very close ranges (contact manipulation and contact maintenance phases) we should by time to afford a better survey of the area than we were able to do in the initial fray.

    Great topic. Look forward to more.

    Steven Brown
    UKF

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    Default Re: cover outs

    It was weird how last night we had a different teacher for our technique part of class show us double cover outs and explain 360 vision sweep of the room. I told him after class about this conversatgion here and actually asked him is he saw it. It seemed to me that he saw it here and taught it that night, but he didn't it was just a freaky conincidence.

    BTW, after doing cover outs for so long looking at my opponent, it was hard to readjust to scanning the room. So today I'm going to just do cover outs for about an hour to get used to it.

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    Default Re: cover outs

    N/T Double posted.

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    Default Re: cover outs

    Quote Originally Posted by jjpregler View Post
    BTW, after doing cover outs for so long looking at my opponent, it was hard to readjust to scanning the room. So today I'm going to just do cover outs for about an hour to get used to it.
    I've found it helpful to keep it simple and make the head orient to fixed positions. Say from a right lead neutral bow you end a technique (triggered Salute, Delayed Sword, whatever). First cross over orient your head to 9:00, second step move it to 3:00 (swivelling of course through 12:00). It requires kind of that blank stare - fixing your eyes on things will actually cause you to miss other things, as your eyes will try to play catch up to your head. Imagine you're Superman or Cyclops and you're carving a smooth and level band with your laser-eyes (sorry, its the best I could do before coffee). Like anything, its best practiced slowly and precisely.

    Enjoy. Bon kenpo.

    Steven Brown
    UKF

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    Default Re: cover outs

    Quote Originally Posted by jjpregler View Post
    It was weird how last night we had a different teacher for our technique part of class show us double cover outs and explain 360 vision sweep of the room. I told him after class about this conversatgion here and actually asked him is he saw it. It seemed to me that he saw it here and taught it that night, but he didn't it was just a freaky conincidence.

    BTW, after doing cover outs for so long looking at my opponent, it was hard to readjust to scanning the room. So today I'm going to just do cover outs for about an hour to get used to it.
    Not encouraging bad habbits or anything, but controlled environments don't need scanning and keeping your eye on a live opponent isn't the worst thing in the world.
    Sean

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