How does 55 techniques compare with the 24 / 32 Parker teachings?

[Renée]

Greetings to all. I am a student of IKCA Kenpo. I love what I'm learning and I like my instructors and fellow students. When I read about Ed Parker's Kenpo, and I see how many more techniques there are, I can't help but wonder, am I missing out on some important things? Is having all those techniques (What is it 162 or something? ) valuable or is it so much that it is overwhelming to remember? Is having 55 techniques better? Anyway, I'd like to hear any thoughts you may have. Thanks!

[amylong]

Hi Renee,

Welcome.

I don't know the 55, but I have made the switch from the 24/Tatum to the 14/20/Speakman and there are a lot of new techniques for me to learn.

As far as I'm concerned, the more you can learn, the better, so after you get the 55 down, you can always learn the other techniques in the system.

Then decide for yourself.

--Amy

[stoneheart]

Just shooting from the hip since I am not a kenpoist: the 55 techniques surely cover most any confrontation you may encounter in the street. More techniques do not necessarily equate to better. In fact, if you ever delve deeper into how many striking arts do things, you'll find that even 55 self-defense techniques, explicitly explained, are far more than many classical karate systems offer. I wouldn't get hung up on the number of techs. I surmise they are meant to be starting points only. In the street, it's really doubtful that you would ever even manage to land even a full orange belt tech, but the techs you learn should teach you sufficient range of motion and striking such that you'll still be able to defend yourself regardless.

[thesensei]

You're on the money, Stoneheart! I started out in a curriculum learning 150+ techniques before black belt (not modern EPAK, but similar), and all the principles taught by those techniques are included in the IKCA 55. Also, as you progress, you will learn to blend and borrow to create whatever technique you need to fit the situation. It's all about spontenaity: learn how to move, then focus on the targets. When you've internalized the 55, you'll be able to apply the movement to striking targets, rather than focusing so much on completing a technique "by the book!"

So, as Amy mentioned, learn the 55, then go ahead and experiment with what others are doing - that's what the IKCA is all about!

Salute

[NickName99]

I agree with Amy, each tech in epak teaches the alphabits of motion. So the more you learn the more fight novels you can write!

Less or more isnt necessary better tho, its really up to the individual! Train hard and do the scholastic stuff to.

[Rob Broad]

Greetings to all. I am a student of IKCA Kenpo. I love what I'm learning and I like my instructors and fellow students. When I read about Ed Parker's Kenpo, and I see how many more techniques there are, I can't help but wonder, am I missing out on some important things? Is having all those techniques (What is it 162 or something? ) valuable or is it so much that it is overwhelming to remember? Is having 55 techniques better? Anyway, I'd like to hear any thoughts you may have. Thanks!

The Tracy's have 600 techniques, EPAK has 154 plus 96 extensions, teh IKCA has 55, is anyone of them better or are they just different methods to get to the same end.

[bdparsons]

Great question Renee,

The answer in Kenpo lies not necessarily in the amount of material as much as it does in understanding the principles and concepts of what you are doing. A proper understanding of IKCA Kenpo will allow you to achieve the goal that Mr. Sullivan and Mr. LeRoux set out establishing for this system of Kenpo; a solid grasp of self-defense, of what works and why, and the ability to do what's necessary to extricate yourself from a situation.

Don't get hung up on a number. There is much, much more present in the IKCA system than folks realize. For those who would say there is so much more to learn in AK or EPAK or Tracy's after you study the IKCA... to this I would agree if what you are after is raw techniques and moves. If properly taught you'll learn no more Kenpo principles and concepts than you will in the IKCA.

Does this mean sticking your head in the sand and saying IKCA is the only way to go? By no means, I began exploring EPAK to see if there was more out there. But the deeper I dig, the more my appreciation of the IKCA material grows. My recommendation would be stick it out with the IKCA curriculum. As your understanding deepens of Kenpo principles and concepts you'll appreciate it as well.

BTW, who do you train with?

Respects,
Bill Parsons
Triangle Kenpo Institute

[Celtic_Crippler]

Great question Renee,

The answer in Kenpo lies not necessarily in the amount of material as much as it does in understanding the principles and concepts of what you are doing.

I think that pretty much hit the proverbial nail right on its proverbial head!!
'thesensai' had it right too; the principles are all the same. If you apply kenpo principles like "borrowing", "grafting", the "equation formula", and the "3 phase concept", you can quite easily take those 55 base techniques and turn them into 555, 5555, 55555 and beyond.

The different systems simply have different phiolosphies or approaches to learning the material, but the underlying principles (the most important aspect in kenpo) are all the same. Prior to studying the IKCA material I learned a Parker/Tracy influenced system comprised of close to 200 techniques not counting extensions, but again...the principles are the same.

[Renée]

Hey everyone thanks for the insightful replies.

I train under Bill Hayes, Jennifer Thomas, and Tony Glorioso.
These are / were students of John Barnett.
The school is called Old School Kenpo, there is a website
http://www.oldschoolkenpo.com

Thanks again everyone!

[Celtic_Crippler]

That's cool. I remember Bill and Jennifer from Vegas. Some nice and talented folks you train with!

[kenpochrstn]

I think that the IKCA way leaves more of the discovery to the student. There is more an opportunity for trial, and error. I would think accordingly that the EPAK 24/32 route. Would be more readily mapped out for the student. A little less trial, and error work for this student. I guess in the end it comes down to the students over all ability to absorb from the outset.

1stJohn1:9

[IWishToLearn]

If you're working solely from the tapes, and never send in for corrections/additions you miss out on at least forty percent of the information.

A certified instructor already has the remaining material and however you go about getting the rest of it, it's not a matter of missing instruction or things needing to be further mapped at that point.

It's a matter of refinement and addition of further principles and concepts. Far too often we hear that position, unfortunately it's partially because the information is not available anywhere else except through the video testing process or from a certified instructor. There isn't anything missing that the 24/32 system teaches if you gain the additional information.

[marcel32us]

Just my two cents on the amount of techniques required to have an adequate system of martial arts.

Every man has got only two hands and two feet, so the amount of possible moves is limited. Therefore it is clear that we don’t need 200 different blocks or strikes. Because of this, the amount of basics is limited too. However the amount of combinations of basics is unlimited. The question is if we need a system of all possible solutions for every possible attack? Since the amount of combinations is unlimited, this is impossible to begin with.

So that’s clear, there is no system that has all the possible answers to all possible attacks.

Furthermore an attempt to create all the answers and learn them would become a problem once attacked, because one would have to instantly make a choice between all those hundreds of techniques, which would take more time then available before getting hit.

Another problem with this is that people can only spend their training time once. And there’s a difference between stuffing techniques in your head (and keeping them there) and learning to apply those techniques and to improvise. So, if we have so many techniques that we have to spend all our time learning the techniques and repeating them to keep ‘m fresh, we won’t have any time left to learn to apply.

I guess we can safely say that 1.000 self defense techniques in a system is too much.

Does that mean that nobody will ever be able to learn to fight using a system with 1.000 self defense techniques? No, certainly not! But the overall results for martial arts students who want to learn how to fight will not be as good as it could be.

On the other hand, the amount of techniques can be too low too!

Let’s compare this to learning a language. If would want to learn 10 new French words, I could either take 20 sentences, each with one new word in them, so that every words appears twice. Or I could have one sentence, containing all the new words.

In the latter method the new-knowledge-density would be so high that my mind would probably never grasp it, so that after several lessons learning this sentence, I’d still not understand the new words, let alone being able to use these words. The first method, with only one new word in each sentence, would learn me each word a lot faster, and gave me two possible applications of the word too, which would learn me to actually use these words.

In Kenpo there’s a certain amount of basics, principles and concepts one has to learn to be able to fight. It’ll be clear to anyone that if we’d try to use all the basics in one technique, that would never work. If we’d use let’s say 10 techniques to stuff all the knowledge in, I’d say it wouldn’t work, and I suppose every martial artist will agree with me on that.

So we can safely say that 10 self defense techniques in a system is not enough.

Does that mean that nobody will ever be able to learn to fight using a system with 10 self defense techniques? No, certainly not! But the overall results for martial arts students who want to learn how to fight will not be as good as it could be.

Conclusion of this is that there most probably is a certain amount of techniques that will give the best results possible in learning students all the basics, principles and concepts, and that amount will be somewhere between 10 and 1.000.

More techniques does therefore not necessarily mean a better system, but the fact that all the information is in the few techniques in a system, doesn’t mean that the system is an effective and efficient learning tool, or that it will produce students that understand how to fight, and that have the ability to do it.

Now I have never worked in the Tracy system, so I don’t exactly know how things are done, but IMHO 600 techniques is (although a lot less than 1.000) still too much. I haven’t worked the IKCA system either but IMHO 55 is (although a lot more than 10) still not enough.

Again, just to make sure that everybody understands me, this does not mean that people who train in these systems are no good fighters. It only means that I think these systems could have produced more proficient martial artists if there were less, respectively more techniques containing the necessary information.

Needless to add that I’m a firm believer in the power of the Parker system, with 154 techniques.

Regards,
Marcel

[SPK,Grasshopper]

As far as I'm concerned, the more you can learn, the better, so after you get the 55 down, you can always learn the other techniques in the system.

First thing I like what Miss Amy said, In Sam-Pai we have 176 techniques to Black with this amount it shows unlimited combinations of your basics just as Mr. Marcel32us said. But it is not the amount of techniques that we do it is how we do the techniques we got..

[Celtic_Crippler]

Just for clarification: The IKCA has 55 BASE techniques required in the system. But, they also teach how to adapt those techniques using several "what if's" so that the student can learn to adapt them to different variables. In some systems these would be considered "extensions" but in the IKCA, one's reactions are not "set in stone" therefore our "extensions" are not listed as separate techniques.

IMHO, their method truely utilizes the principle of tailoring. Once a student is taught the basic "template" of a technique and the principles behind it, they are then taught HOW to think, instead of WHAT to think. The student is given a platform of ideas in which to explore on their own and find out what "extensions" would work for them utilizing other principles like grafting, borrowing, the equation formula, and of course strong basics and fundamentals.

IMHO, that's the real difference. Some systems teach the student how to handle different variables through extensions with a physical approach by requiring them to learn set techniques, and some teach through a mental approach by encouraging the student to think for themselves by addressing "extensions" in terms of ideas. Is one method better than the other? That soley depends on the individual. The IKCA teaches the exact same principles as EPAK or AK. The methodology is simply different.

I hold a black belt in a Kenpo system with over 190+ techniques so I can relate and compare the two systems as I am now a member of the IKCA. However, notice that I said "I" so this is uniquely my perspective. As stated, preference depends on the individual. I can tell you that it has been my experience thus far that since joining the IKCA, my basics have drastically improved. Does that mean someone not in the IKCA has weak basics? Absolutely not. That just means it was a benefit to ME.

[bdparsons]

I haven't worked the IKCA system either but IMHO 55 is (although a lot more than 10) still not enough.

Hi Marcel,


Thanks for your well thought out post. I can see the logic of your conclusions up to a point. I also think the language analogy, while a good one, has limits.


But in light of your quoted statement above my question would be, “Not enough to accomplish what?”


I think what is happening (correct me if I'm wrong) is that you are assuming that the IKCA system, because of its lesser amount of techniques, is lacking in the Kenpo principles and concepts necessary to make it a complete system of Kenpo. I think this position stems from another assumption that since Mr. Parker designed a system with 154 techniques (and 96 extensions), this is the number at which and method of instruction by which all Kenpo principles and concepts need to be learned. Fair enough, I can see where someone who has learned this way takes that position.


But these assumptions beg the question as to whether all Kenpo principles and concepts can be taught (and learned) differently. The reality is that the IKCA curriculum does in fact teach the same principles and concepts. I'm also aware that for the sake of debate, just because I make that statement doesn't make it so. But neither does someone (not you specifically, I'm speaking generally) making an assumption that the IKCA system is incomplete make it so.


Over the past few years, as an IKCA practitioner, I have consistently tried to “poke holes” in the IKCA curriculum. I want to find out what's “lacking”, as this is the charge most often leveled at the system. My experience has taught me that the deeper I dig into EPAK, the more I find out how complete and efficient the IKCA system is. Am I calling EPAK inefficient? NO. But I am saying that there is another method to learning the beauty and logic it teaches.


Good discussion, and I very much appreciate your being willing to discuss your thoughts in a civil manner, not all are willing to do so.


Respects,
Bill Parsons
Triangle Kenpo Institute

[stone_dragone]

I have recently, on a whim, "designed" a minimized self defense system...not so much for use but as an academic exercise. For example, if one were to break down basics to the minimum amount of material, you would have to decide what was the most important...academically I came up with this:

Basics being broken down into 7 areas -Stances, maneuvers, blocks, strikes, kicks, joint locks and throws.

I further limited this threoretical system by saying that one could only have five techniques per basics group. Only five hand strikes taught, five kicks, etc.

No limit was placed on how to employ those techniques. However, when using the system, they must incorperate all seven areas of basics:they must maneuver, kick,block, etc.

I found that with only 35 individual movements, combined 7 at a time, the possible results were far in excess of a trillion techniques - I know, it seems high, but the results are astounding. presuming that only 1/2 of one percent of these possible combinations are feasable and work, it still results in over 166 billion combinations!

This doesnt take into account combinations that, say, punch more than twice or double kicks, etc.

Whats the point - after breaking the 55 base techniques into individual movements and cataloging each individual movement so as not to repeat any in the list, one would clearly be the low hundreds. The possible combinations jump astronomically. To have distilled those combinations into 55 base techniques with understanding to sponteneously create unlearned combinations creates an amazingly potent mixture...I love the IKCA!

[jadewolf3]

i was always told great fighter have a dirty dozen techniques then they could make thousands of slight variations but still from the core of 12 i knida like less is more because you are not having to decide if you should use twisting zebra, or flying squirrel or the dreaded quacking duck technique to pound this guy it all boils down to block/evade punc/kick/claw/strike and continue said 2 procedures

[MARSHALLS KENPO]

Hi Marcel,


Thanks for your well thought out post. I can see the logic of your conclusions up to a point. I also think the language analogy, while a good one, has limits.


But in light of your quoted statement above my question would be, “Not enough to accomplish what?”


I think what is happening (correct me if I'm wrong) is that you are assuming that the IKCA system, because of its lesser amount of techniques, is lacking in the Kenpo principles and concepts necessary to make it a complete system of Kenpo. I think this position stems from another assumption that since Mr. Parker designed a system with 154 techniques (and 96 extensions), this is the number at which and method of instruction by which all Kenpo principles and concepts need to be learned. Fair enough, I can see where someone who has learned this way takes that position.


But these assumptions beg the question as to whether all Kenpo principles and concepts can be taught (and learned) differently. The reality is that the IKCA curriculum does in fact teach the same principles and concepts. I'm also aware that for the sake of debate, just because I make that statement doesn't make it so. But neither does someone (not you specifically, I'm speaking generally) making an assumption that the IKCA system is incomplete make it so.


Over the past few years, as an IKCA practitioner, I have consistently tried to “poke holes” in the IKCA curriculum. I want to find out what's “lacking”, as this is the charge most often leveled at the system. My experience has taught me that the deeper I dig into EPAK, the more I find out how complete and efficient the IKCA system is. Am I calling EPAK inefficient? NO. But I am saying that there is another method to learning the beauty and logic it teaches.


Good discussion, and I very much appreciate your being willing to discuss your thoughts in a civil manner, not all are willing to do so.


Respects,
Bill Parsons
Triangle Kenpo Institute

Good post sir, we still need to hook up sometime before we fall apart.
Duct tape only holds so long.

How many techniques does anyone really need? Just one. Which one, well we really don't know do we. That being said, the techniques of any system should be viewed as an example that teaches specific principles of movement.

What is the saying I would rather have 1 technique I can do a 100 ways instead of 100 tchniques I can do 1 way ( or something like that).

Learn the basics, and learn how to execute them correctly.
your friend

[bdparsons]

What is the saying I would rather have 1 technique I can do a 100 ways instead of 100 tchniques I can do 1 way ( or something like that).

If I am quoting Mr. Parker correctly he said, "I'd rather know 10 techniques I can fight with, than know 100 techniques that fight me."

Learn the basics, and learn how to execute them correctly.

Absotively!

Also, just to let you know, my Kenpo first aid kit is stocked with the essentials: Duct tape, super glue, baling wire, bubble gum, WD40 and Bondo!

Respects,
Bill Parsons
Triangle Kenpo Institute