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Thread: MT: Just a question.

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    Default MT: Just a question.

    Just a question.
    By thetruth - Tue, 05 Dec 2006 07:31:34 GMT

    ====================

    I am getting a vibe from a few people in the forum regarding other people who teach Parker Kenpo. I get the idea that people don't believe other peoples version of Kenpo is as legitimate as theirs. Ed Parker died 16 years ago. Should Kenpo be preserved and taught as it was by Ed Parker or should it be developed and added to (from what Mr Parker was teaching at the time of his death) as Jeff Speakman has with Kenpo 5.0 (something he asserts is the direction Mr Parker was heading before he died) or with the sub level 4 as the Doc has done (and also suggests this was the area Mr Parker was heading)? Is kenpo an ever developing art or one that is more similar in nature to the asian arts?

    Cheers
    Sam


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    Default Re: MT: Just a question.

    I once heard Kenpo described as a science, and science evolves. The world is now round, right? Parts of what Parker taught have been deleted or added to depending on what is found to work when tested. Theroys are developed and then tested and we keep what is known to be true. Sometimes it overrides a previous theroy or technique. I think that it's important to know the history to which we have derrived upon current belifs. And great respect to the SGM for what he was able to develope. But, the legacy lives on because he taught others to carry on after him. Just my two cents.
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    Default Re: MT: Just a question.

    Quote Originally Posted by Arizona Angel View Post
    I once heard Kenpo described as a science, and science evolves. The world is now round, right? Parts of what Parker taught have been deleted or added to depending on what is found to work when tested. Theroys are developed and then tested and we keep what is known to be true. Sometimes it overrides a previous theroy or technique. I think that it's important to know the history to which we have derrived upon current belifs. And great respect to the SGM for what he was able to develope. But, the legacy lives on because he taught others to carry on after him. Just my two cents.
    Couldn't have said it better!
    "It is sobering to reflect that one of the best ways to get yourself a reputation as a dangerous citizen these days is to go about repeating the very phrases which our founding fathers used in the struggle for independence." – Charles A. Beard

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    Default Re: MT: Just a question.

    Well put, AA.
    "Change is not necessary...Survival is not mandatory" - W. Edward Deming

    "When I hit....I hit the whole enchilada" - Master David Leung

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    Default Re: MT: Just a question.

    I view that kenpo should always evole and advance.
    My only concern is that you should always adhere to the past for reference.

    Those who forget the past are doomed to repeat it.

    with that being said, EPAK should never be traditional but I just think that you should add, improve, revisit but never subtract!
    Every SD tech has great concepts and lessons in them. Even the silly ones.
    that only my opinion.

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    Default Re: MT: Just a question.

    Ponder this then: In a street environment how effective, efficient, or practical would a flying side kick be?

    Sure, in the past when an unarmed farmer needed to unseat a calvryman in order to defeat him I'm sure it was a good weapon to use. But now? Someone familiar with grappling would thank you for giving up your entire base making it easier for them to take you down to the ground where they are most comfortable. With the populartity of UFC...I wouldn't do it.

    If you agree with this, then you agree that Kenpo should evolve. It is the principles that are the very foundation of what Kenpo was built on. They are sound. HOW they are applied can vary however, depending on what mode of fighting is prevelent in one's current environment.
    "It is sobering to reflect that one of the best ways to get yourself a reputation as a dangerous citizen these days is to go about repeating the very phrases which our founding fathers used in the struggle for independence." – Charles A. Beard

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    Default Re: MT: Just a question.

    Thats what I mean, If you dont need to use a flying tech, dont use.
    But I rather know it and not use it, then need it and not know it!

    Evole with the lessons of the past!
    There is no real need not to learn them.Just dont stop there

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    Default Re: MT: Just a question.

    CC,

    On hind sight, I live in Canada and we have the mounties!
    lol

    I never know when I could use a flying kick

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    Default Re: MT: Just a question.

    Quote Originally Posted by NickName99 View Post
    CC,

    On hind sight, I live in Canada and we have the mounties!
    lol

    I never know when I could use a flying kick
    Just don't knock off the turban and you'll be ok.
    Quality outweighs quantity every time.

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    Default Re: MT: Just a question.

    How many times did SGM himself change what he was doing in his own lifetime? Kenpo is supposed to evolve and grow.
    Great posts CC and AA!
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    Default Re: MT: Just a question.

    LOL its not fun having an unpopular belief.
    But I guess that is a very upsetting topic.
    Im sorry if I upset any one it honestly wasnt my intention.
    I'll keep this option to myself. After all its about personal journey.
    I really do admire Mr Chapel and Mr Speakman.
    I hope that no one misunderstands that, these guys have a lot to offer. Im not ready yet to learn advanced concepts but when Im ready you better believe I will be looking these two up.I want to improve my understanding of EPAK first then look into 5.0, Got to learn how to walk before I run.

    Best to everyone on their journey.

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    Default Re: MT: Just a question.

    Mr.Parkers Infinate Insights to Kenpo described Kenpo as a gasous art always evolving. He decribed The Japanese arts as rigid non Changing. That should tell us how he felt about change. Remember Tradition has a lot to teach us but we must not let it become our Master. Kenpo will always change and evolve. Don't change for the sake of change. Change to make something better !!

    Most Respectfully,
    Sifuroy

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    Default Re: MT: Just a question.

    Quote Originally Posted by sifuroy View Post
    Mr.Parkers Infinate Insights to Kenpo described Kenpo as a gasous art always evolving. He decribed The Japanese arts as rigid non Changing. That should tell us how he felt about change. Remember Tradition has a lot to teach us but we must not let it become our Master. Kenpo will always change and evolve. Don't change for the sake of change. Change to make something better !!

    Most Respectfully,
    Sifuroy
    I've found that one can quote SGM Parker all day long and until you're blue in the face and ocassionally even get some to admit to the logic behind your reasons....but when it comes down to it those that are unwilling to change simply won't.

    That being said, deleting a technique from the curriculum as it was in 1989 is not necessarily "changing" anything nor is it necessarily productive. If, however, you replace a technique that is no longer as applicable to the environment of the day with one that is.. that would be a "change." And, if that is the case and the newer technique is founded on the principles and concepts as prescribed by SGM Parker and more relevent to the types of attacks that are prevalent to your environment then how could that be bad?!?! If you subscribe to the base principle behind what kenpo is, then I say you have a duty to evolve the art so that it is, without a doubt, the most practical and effective form of self defense at any time in any place!

    I think most people are simply afraid of change. I'll admit that I'm just as guilty as the next guy. We're comfortable with what we know and uncomfortable with the unknown. People like thier "routines" and are hesitant to break with or alter them. There's no stress involved in knowing what tomorrow brings. Know what I mean? It takes courage to change in any capacity whether it's your Kenpo curriculum, starting a new job, going to a new school, or anything else for that matter because you don't yet know what to expect.... and that scares a lot of people.
    "It is sobering to reflect that one of the best ways to get yourself a reputation as a dangerous citizen these days is to go about repeating the very phrases which our founding fathers used in the struggle for independence." – Charles A. Beard

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    Default Re: MT: Just a question.

    Quote Originally Posted by Celtic_Crippler View Post
    ... If, however, you replace a technique that is no longer as applicable to the environment of the day with one that is.. that would be a "change." And, if that is the case and the newer technique is founded on the principles and concepts as prescribed by SGM Parker and more relevent to the types of attacks that are prevalent to your environment then how could that be bad?!?!
    I'm with the mad Irishman on this one. Change, if done by someone knowlegable and for solid reasons, is not only good but necessary. Threats change, and we evolve to deal with them.

    To those who say only add, never subtract, I'd say that you will soon have a very unwieldy and confusing system. Kenpo teaches efficient use of principles, aplied useing solid concepts. Teach these, not a list of techniques. And teach them to be aplied to the threats your students will likely face in the real world.

    An example of one area that might need to be addressed like this is disarming a sword. AK doesn't do a lot of that, while some of the traditional JMA's and the FMA's still do. Not too many people carried swords in Mr. Parkers day. But some gangs are now carrying machetes. Maybe we need to evolve (or devolve) and look at this. The FMA's I've worked with have been very compatible with Kenpo. Aplying our structure to their techniques can be pretty effective. But, you have to learn principles and concepts, not a list of techniques, to do this. And, if you were to incorporate it into your system, this is how you would have to teach it. I'd say replacing some of our knife techniques with techniques designed to work on a sword and a knife would be a good thing, done with proper understanding of the system.

    My .02.

    Dan C

    P.S., AA, your post was well said. Twenty cents worth, at least!
    Dan
    There are things that are worth knowing for their own sake, worth finding for the pure joy of discovery.

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    Default Re: MT: Just a question.

    Quote Originally Posted by thedan View Post
    I'm with the mad Irishman on this one. Change, if done by someone knowlegable and for solid reasons, is not only good but necessary. Threats change, and we evolve to deal with them.

    To those who say only add, never subtract, I'd say that you will soon have a very unwieldy and confusing system. Kenpo teaches efficient use of principles, aplied useing solid concepts. Teach these, not a list of techniques. And teach them to be aplied to the threats your students will likely face in the real world.

    An example of one area that might need to be addressed like this is disarming a sword. AK doesn't do a lot of that, while some of the traditional JMA's and the FMA's still do. Not too many people carried swords in Mr. Parkers day. But some gangs are now carrying machetes. Maybe we need to evolve (or devolve) and look at this. The FMA's I've worked with have been very compatible with Kenpo. Aplying our structure to their techniques can be pretty effective. But, you have to learn principles and concepts, not a list of techniques, to do this. And, if you were to incorporate it into your system, this is how you would have to teach it. I'd say replacing some of our knife techniques with techniques designed to work on a sword and a knife would be a good thing, done with proper understanding of the system.

    My .02.

    Dan C

    P.S., AA, your post was well said. Twenty cents worth, at least!
    Dan
    Good point. It could just have easily been posted under Hemi's thread asking if one can learn too many technqiues. MS-13 are notorious for using machete's. Maybe I should find a Kendo school....... hmmm
    "It is sobering to reflect that one of the best ways to get yourself a reputation as a dangerous citizen these days is to go about repeating the very phrases which our founding fathers used in the struggle for independence." – Charles A. Beard

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    Default Re: MT: Just a question.

    Quote Originally Posted by Celtic_Crippler View Post
    Good point. It could just have easily been posted under Hemi's thread asking if one can learn too many technqiues. MS-13 are notorious for using machete's. Maybe I should find a Kendo school....... hmmm
    Not a bad idea, but be ready to be surprised and cut up. I once worked with a JMA practitioner of several arts, including Kendo and Iado. He had scars all over his arms from practicing with live blades! As they advanced, his system required defending and disarming hard strikes with a sharpened sword. He said the scars were from learning- if he'd failed the test, the scar might likely have been a stub! Let us know- and send pictures if it goes badly... LOL!

    Dan C
    There are things that are worth knowing for their own sake, worth finding for the pure joy of discovery.

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    Default Re: MT: Just a question.

    Eh....what's one more scar. LOL I think I'd rather train against a dull blade though. Or even a padded one! Besides, how can I press the flash button of the camera if my finger is gone!
    "It is sobering to reflect that one of the best ways to get yourself a reputation as a dangerous citizen these days is to go about repeating the very phrases which our founding fathers used in the struggle for independence." – Charles A. Beard

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    Default Re: MT: Just a question.

    Quote Originally Posted by Celtic_Crippler View Post
    how can I press the flash button of the camera if my finger is gone!
    That's an old Parker-Kendo cross tech- Stubbubg the Button! Originally applied to the nose, but it could be adapted...

    Dan C
    There are things that are worth knowing for their own sake, worth finding for the pure joy of discovery.

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    Default Re: MT: Just a question.

    Quote Originally Posted by Mikael151 View Post
    How many times did SGM himself change what he was doing in his own lifetime? Kenpo is supposed to evolve and grow.
    Great posts CC and AA!

    Yes, but when Ed Parker changed the system, he didn't change the principles and concepts. You have people out there today that don't understand the core system, making changes. Yes, Ed Parker said he wanted his system to update with the times. He also said "Kenpo never changes, it continually refines itself" I am pretty sure that he wouldn't have completely gutted the system like some are proposing.

    Many of Ed Parker's changes to the system were basically in the form of adding more material to the belt ranks. Lets not forget that he was a business man with a large family to support. In the early days of American Kenpo, you learned the techniques, 32 extensions, and forms up to 6 by black belt. There wasn't any material to learn afterward. So what do you do, you refine. You learn to formulate techniques on the fly.

    Today you have what 72 extensions and multiple sets, that in the opinion of many of the old timers, add nothing to the system. Many consider it filler material. When you add in that Ed Parker made a career out of Kenpo, and that he had a large family to support, extra material would mean students would stay around longer. Long term students meant that the schools stayed open and made it possible to pay the bills.

    It's funny, the old guys who learned bare bones Kenpo were tough and could defend themselves. Today, too many people can spout off theory until the cows come home, but can't break out of the ideal phase. Kind of makes you wonder, huh?

    I know this won't be a popular post, so flame away.

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