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Thread: MT: Broken Ram- Front Tackle

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    Default MT: Broken Ram- Front Tackle

    Broken Ram- Front Tackle
    By MJS - Thu, 21 Sep 2006 18:14:49 GMT

    ====================

    To carry on with the tackle threads, I'm putting this up for discussion.

    1) While in a right neutral bow, have your left foot swing counter clockwise to 3, into a right neutral bow. Simultaneously deliver a right overhead downward hammerfist to opponents neck.

    2) With opponents left arm still grasping onto your waist, pivot to your left, into a right rev. bow facing 10 and deliver a right uppercut against the joint of opponents left elbow to cause a break.

    3) Deliver a right back scoop kick to opponents groin and plant your right foot to point of origin.

    4) While planting your right foot, loop your right hand counter clockwise and over opponents left arm and strike his left jaw with a right downward hammerfist, while simultaneously planting your right foot, from the previous move.

    5) Right front crossover and cover to 4.


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    Default Re: MT: Broken Ram- Front Tackle

    Not one of my favorites, but here's my spin on it....

    From a natural stance with attacker attempting mid-line tackle:

    1) Step off line to about 4:00 with the left foot simultaneously executing a left sword hand targeting behind attackers left ear as you execute a right elbow block to attackers left biceps.

    2) Unwind into a right neutral bow executing an elbow break by continuing the momentum from the right elbow block, circling around and under attackers left arm behind the elbow, and thrusting your arm forward utilizing the tourqe produced by assuming the RNB. (Motion is similar to executing an uppercut punch)

    3) Use reverse motion and execute a right back knuckle strike to opponents ribs

    4) Continue the momentum from the back knuckle strike, circling back to execute a forearm smash to the base of attackers skull simultaneously buckling the attackers left leg with your right.

    What's your spin?
    "It is sobering to reflect that one of the best ways to get yourself a reputation as a dangerous citizen these days is to go about repeating the very phrases which our founding fathers used in the struggle for independence." Charles A. Beard

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    Default Re: MT: Broken Ram- Front Tackle

    Quote Originally Posted by MT Post Bot View Post
    Broken Ram- Front Tackle
    By MJS - Thu, 21 Sep 2006 18:14:49 GMT

    ====================

    To carry on with the tackle threads, I'm putting this up for discussion.

    1) While in a right neutral bow, have your left foot swing counter clockwise to 3, into a right neutral bow. Simultaneously deliver a right overhead downward hammerfist to opponents neck.

    2) With opponents left arm still grasping onto your waist, pivot to your left, into a right rev. bow facing 10 and deliver a right uppercut against the joint of opponents left elbow to cause a break.

    3) Deliver a right back scoop kick to opponents groin and plant your right foot to point of origin.

    4) While planting your right foot, loop your right hand counter clockwise and over opponents left arm and strike his left jaw with a right downward hammerfist, while simultaneously planting your right foot, from the previous move.

    5) Right front crossover and cover to 4.


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    This is a great technique.

    For point #3, I also teach a simultaneous right back-knuckle to the opponent's ribs.

    Also note why this technique is in the system......anyone.....?
    I can do all things through Christ, who strengthens me.
    (Phillipians 4:13)


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    Default Re: MT: Broken Ram- Front Tackle

    Well, I got scolded on the other board ... but I'll perhaps take a run at this here ... and maybe there a bit later. Having recently worked this technique extensively in a private lesson, here are the new things I take away.

    The attacker is taking one step in and then stops his forward momentum. During this step, his arms are down or back. There is no action a defender can take to prevent a grab.

    The defender must first "Establish a Base" - (Rule #1). Step back with the left into a right neutral bow. The left foot will move toward 4:30ish ... but not so far as to not establish an appropriate brace angle.

    The left hand holds the attacker down, as the right handsword, with a big circle wind-up strikes the attackers neck in the settle. (Upper Body and Lower Body Synchronization - please).



    The next strike will reverse the circle of the handsword ... a big circle coming around and under the attackers' left arm in the uppercut motion described above; striking at the elbow for a break ("Broken" Ram). This arm break also needs to use proper body mechanics, torquing into the Rear Bow with the break.

    It is possible that the attackers elbow is not an available target (the attacker is too close to the defender). From the handsword, it is possible to create the needed distance by pushing the attackers head/neck slightly away immediately after the handsword but before reversing your right arm direction.



    The left foot begins to draw back toward the right foot, as the defenders' right hand begins to unwind from the break. When in a cat stance, the right foot scoops up to the groin, and then executes a standard inside buckle of the attackers left leg with a hammer fist to the attackers' head. The right leg buckle is executed on the 7:30 line as the right outward hammerfist is executed on the 4:30 line. Upper and lower body synchronization is important; as the foot plants, the hammer fist strikes and the stance is upright (adding body english to the buckle).

    The hand/foot moves in this last move line up in the same manner as the hand/knee move at the end of Locked Wing ... the hand needs to travel a big circle, so it starts first and moves quick - the knee needs to travel a much shorter distance, so it does not start moving until the hand is 2/3s of the way through its circle. --- In Broken Ram, after the break, the hand starts to unwind before the right foot scoop begins so that the buckle-hammerfist are synchronous.

    The Defenders body position at the end of this technique should look like a 'Downward Block' toward 1:30 (the Reverse of the first move in Thrusting Salute / Buckling Branch).



    Recall that this is a prescribed response, for a prescribed attack, as I understand it, from my study of Ed Parker's American Kenpo.

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    Default Re: MT: Broken Ram- Front Tackle

    Quote Originally Posted by michaeledward View Post
    Well, I got scolded on the other board ...
    Don't know why, looks good to me. Only points I'd make are:

    The attacker is taking one step in and then stops his forward momentum. ...The left hand holds the attacker down, as the right handsword
    I do that left as a heel palm strike to the top left side of the head. That both stops or considerably slows his momentum and redirects/moves/holds him out- and keeps him down so that I have the room necessary to get the break.

    I keep my circles as tight as possible, but they are a little large here by necessity. OK as long as you remember that Kenpo elongates the things!

    Good post!

    Dan C

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    Default Re: MT: Broken Ram- Front Tackle

    Quote Originally Posted by michaeledward View Post
    The attacker is taking one step in and then stops his forward momentum. During this step, his arms are down or back. There is no action a defender can take to prevent a grab.
    Question: IF someone's intent is to indeed tackle you, do you honestly believe that they will STOP their forward momentum on their own?

    IMHO, an individual trying to tackle you will not only NOT stop their forward momentum, but are indeed relying on that forward momentum to aid in tackling you.

    I think when evaluationg defense against a tackle, or more likely these days a "shoot", you must take into consideration the attackers forward momentum and then learn to use that to your advantage.
    -IMHO

    FYI: I used to play middle linebacker in high school..... I tackled a lot of people. LOL.
    "It is sobering to reflect that one of the best ways to get yourself a reputation as a dangerous citizen these days is to go about repeating the very phrases which our founding fathers used in the struggle for independence." Charles A. Beard

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    Default Re: MT: Broken Ram- Front Tackle

    The attack that was discussed recently is:

    'The Attacker Takes One Diving Step In and Stops Himself'.

    This may, or may not be realistic today. But I have learned American Kenpo as a prescribed response to a prescribed attack.

    Off the top of my head, there are probably a few ways two combatants could end up in that position that do not require a linebacker tackle. Perhaps, the defender has already hit the attacker in the face, and now he is trying to protect his face. Maybe the attacker is trying to lift the defender off the feet, and perform a crocodile head shake type maneuver. <<shrugg>>.

    It was very clear, though, that in both Charging and Broken, the attacker does not have forward momentum.

    Alternatively, Intercepting the Ram does have attacker momentum, and that is used in the defense technique. We must meet his force with our force, and we use his momentum as we knee and plant our right foot back and down with the elbow.



    Incidentally, one of the reasons we reviewed these techniques was because they seem so damned awkward. I believe I have gained a better understanding about the nature of the attacks and why our weapons are directed as they are. I'm still not sure I like these techniques ... but I do like them better.

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    Default Re: MT: Broken Ram- Front Tackle

    "This may, or may not be realistic today"

    Was it realistic in 1980?


    LOL I've got some excellent techniques that work very well against the prescribed attack : "Attacker falls down on his face and cries like a little girl". They are completely flawless agsint this specific attack. They can be made to work agsint other attacks, mainly by inserting a move or two similar to "hit attacker in the face with a horseshoe". then you graft into the original technique


    just kidding with ya


    but seriosuly is this a case of the attack being redefined to make the technque work?

    Or is there somehting missing from the technique that makes it more widely applicable... say, for example, against an attack that intends to succeed? like, maybe you take 2 steps back to keep the depth where you need it? or maybe there is some mechanism for stopping the momentum that is not described in the write-up?

    At about 20 seconds into this video I think you can see the "arm break" motion. The attacker launched a shoot (with momentum), kenpo-guy steps off line, as the attacker resets, he is actually, briefly , in the attack position prescribed by this write-up : bent at the waist, arms out, no momentum.

    http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=tdLsxLboLzg

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    Default Re: MT: Broken Ram- Front Tackle

    Quote Originally Posted by michaeledward View Post
    It was very clear, though, that in both Charging and Broken, the attacker does not have forward momentum.
    Consider this then: Why use the word "Charging" in the title of the technique if the attacker is not.... "charging?" For that matter, why even use the "Ram" to draw a correlation to the technique in the students mind? The reference to a "ram" indicates in itself that the attacker is charging. That's what rams do! (Well, that and eat grass, sleep, etc. LOL) Anyway, If there is no momentum involved with the grab then it becomes a "hug" does it not? Techniques related to these type scenarios usually have "Bear" in the title to draw a mental correlation to "bear-hug."

    I submit for your consideration that the thought of an attacker rushing up to an individual and suddenly stopping prior to a tackle is not only ludicrous, but unlikely. Newton's Law of Motion: An object in motion tends to stay in motion uless acted upon by another object or force. A simple test would prove my point: Find an open area and set a marker of some sort. Then, from a reasonable distance, sprint toward the marker. Once you reach the marker, stop cold. Is it possible? Not unless the marker is a brick wall.

    IMHO
    "It is sobering to reflect that one of the best ways to get yourself a reputation as a dangerous citizen these days is to go about repeating the very phrases which our founding fathers used in the struggle for independence." Charles A. Beard

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    Default Re: MT: Broken Ram- Front Tackle

    My instructor - Mike Hogan - has several times, on the mat, said that 'Charging Ram' does not have forward momentum. I could never quite understand that statement either. I, too, found the dichotomy of "Charging" not equal to "No Momentum".

    When I spent time with my instructors instructor (and through these discussions (here and there) I have tried to not name drop), he explained and showed me the application of the attack and defense for all three RAM techniques.

    Mr. Planas said that the reason for the name is that the attacker is - QUOTE - In the Position of - END QUOTE - a Charging Ram; that is, bent over with the head down. He said that frequently, people misinterpret the nature of the attack because of the 'Charging' in Charging Ram.

    He further paralleled the name difficulty to the technique 'Locking Horns'. This technique, also, was named based on the position of one of the combatants; What is the body position of deer when they are locking their antlers?

    I will say this again ... I study Ed Parker's American Kenpo. In this style of Martial Arts, we learn self defense techniques as prescribed responses to prescribed attacks. I did not prescribe the attack. Someone long before me did so. The prescribed attack related to me by, Mr. Planas, was "He takes one diving step in and then he stops himself". (Not a sprint over a 'reasonable distance').


    I am still not sure I like these techniques. In fact, they were my least favorite techniques in the system, which is why when I had time to work with Huk, I chose to focus here. I believe I now have a better understanding of how these techniques are designed, and what they can teach me. This does not mean I have complete knowledge of this information.

    But this is me, sharing my two cents.

    Mike

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    Default Re: MT: Broken Ram- Front Tackle

    Quote Originally Posted by michaeledward View Post
    But this is me, sharing my two cents.

    Mike
    Sir,
    Let us not forget the positioning of the attackers arm. Which dictates the depth of the attack and which one of the "rams" you will do. Each in their own right for the attack might mean the difference with their left arm placement.

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    Default Re: MT: Broken Ram- Front Tackle

    Quote Originally Posted by jfarnsworth View Post
    Sir,
    Let us not forget the positioning of the attackers arm. Which dictates the depth of the attack and which one of the "rams" you will do. Each in their own right for the attack might mean the difference with their left arm placement.

    I think that may be what Mr. Seabrook was hinting at a few posts back.

    Charging Ram, the attackers arms are 'forward'. This provides the opportunity for the defender to take preemptive action.

    Broken Ram, the attackers arms are 'down' or 'back'. The attacker is leading with his body, the defender is going to get grabbed.

    I think I have finally found a way to remember which is which of these two. Even in the "Ideal Phase" of training, I have found it difficult to keep these attacks correct.

    Although, I am curious if Mr. Seabrook was, instead, hinting at something else.

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    Default Re: MT: Broken Ram- Front Tackle

    Quote Originally Posted by michaeledward View Post
    Mr. Planas said that the reason for the name is that the attacker is - QUOTE - In the Position of - END QUOTE - a Charging Ram; that is, bent over with the head down. He said that frequently, people misinterpret the nature of the attack because of the 'Charging' in Charging Ram.
    I can accept that. But perhaps we should then state that the technique is a defense against a grab or take down attempt, and not a tackle as previously stated. That is quite misleading. I hold a 2nd degree black belt in American Kenpo and learned this technique against a "tackle" and a persons momentum does not simply stop when they're trying to "tackle" you. That was my point. Even if taking a single step in, there will be some forward motion (because the attacker "stepped in") An act of aggression is not gentle. This is not a friendly hug you are defending against. As a matter of fact, based on what you are now saying, the next maneuver attempted by the attacker would probably be to pick you up and slam you to the ground (like a shoot.) So, are we defending a shoot attempt? If so, we would need to evaluate the effectiveness against that type of attack.

    I've never been 100% convinced of the effectiveness of this technique. I suppose I'll just have to agree to disagree on this one until someone manages to sway my opinion either by pointing out something I hadn't considered or by posting some decent footage showing me otherwise.
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    Default Re: MT: Broken Ram- Front Tackle

    The attacker might have stopped their momentum, but they could re-engage. I've noticed that a lot of grapplers like to fake high before dropping down and shooting in. Maybe it's for that kind of scenario?
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    Default Re: MT: Broken Ram- Front Tackle

    Quote Originally Posted by Mikael151 View Post
    The attacker might have stopped their momentum, but they could re-engage. I've noticed that a lot of grapplers like to fake high before dropping down and shooting in. Maybe it's for that kind of scenario?
    That's true. Many grappler's are taught to fein a jab to draw your attention up prior to shooting your legs for the take down. Hmmmm, now this technique could work against that type of attack.......

    O.K.... I just got up and walked through the technique a few times thinking about this type attack. I haven't tried it with an uke' but here's my perspective on it now: A shooter will normally try to take both legs if possible. In this technique, stepping back with the left takes a leg from them. Then, as described in the version I posted, the right elbow block takes care of the shooters left arm as it comes in which prevents them from taking your right leg simultaneously stunning them with the left hand strike. I'm thinking the rest of the technique would work from here....

    I think I actually like the technique a little more now looking at it from this perspective. Against this base type shoot technique I think it could work nicely. I'll have to play with it in class. Good Point, BTW
    "It is sobering to reflect that one of the best ways to get yourself a reputation as a dangerous citizen these days is to go about repeating the very phrases which our founding fathers used in the struggle for independence." Charles A. Beard

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