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Thread: The Five C's, and the 3rd State of Motion

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    Default The Five C's, and the 3rd State of Motion

    Attached to the 3RD STATE OF MOTION -- GASEOUS -- are aspects of movement that lead to TEMPORAL VARIANTS. These temporal variants might be best understood in language metaphor contexts, as decreasing the space between vowels or consonants. They are reductions in time, accomplished by altering and alternating rhythmic execution.

    The "Five C's" are things we can do to movement in the gaseous state of execution that cause that movement to occur in shortened time frames, in tighter or larger spaces, with shorter or bigger circles, lines, semi-circles, or orbital elipses which have been elongated or reduced.

    Compound
    Contract
    Condense
    Consolidate
    Conjugate

    How are they similar and different? When would one be desirable over another? When might one be undesirable over another? How do the moves in a sequence chain together differently when under the influence of one or more of the Five C's? (i.e., how might Parting Wings. Five Swords, Hooking Wings, or Thundering Hammers look different during gaseous execution under the influence of CONTRACTION alone? What about under the influence of CONTRACTION and CONJUGATION at the same time?)

    FYI -- "the Five C's", "Circles of Confluence/Confluence of Circles", "Escalator Parking Spaces", "Chaining", and "Path of the Arc/Arc of the Path" are among some key core concepts that were being explored with Mr. P. prior to his passing, and relate to how Mr. Parker represented his own movement in his mind during it's execution. If you ever wanted a peek inside his head to see what was going on in his thoughts while he was moving or thinking about his own movement, here's a head start.

    Talk amongst yourselves.
    Clear mind, clear movement. Mastery of the Arts is mastery over the Self. That in this moment, this motion, the thoughts, memories, impulses and passions that cloud the mind must yield to the clarity of purpose, and purity of motion.

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    Default Re: The Five C's, and the 3rd State of Motion

    Dave,

    Duuuuude. That just made my head hurt. Let me get some meds in me, before I read this again.
    Brad Marshall SP
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    trgodbm@yahoo.com

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    Default Re: The Five C's, and the 3rd State of Motion

    Quote Originally Posted by Dr. Dave in da house View Post
    Attached to the 3RD STATE OF MOTION -- GASEOUS -- are aspects of movement that lead to TEMPORAL VARIANTS. These temporal variants might be best understood in language metaphor contexts, as decreasing the space between vowels or consonants. They are reductions in time, accomplished by altering and alternating rhythmic execution.

    The "Five C's" are things we can do to movement in the gaseous state of execution that cause that movement to occur in shortened time frames, in tighter or larger spaces, with shorter or bigger circles, lines, semi-circles, or orbital elipses which have been elongated or reduced.

    Compound
    Contract
    Condense
    Consolidate
    Conjugate

    How are they similar and different? When would one be desirable over another? When might one be undesirable over another? How do the moves in a sequence chain together differently when under the influence of one or more of the Five C's? (i.e., how might Parting Wings. Five Swords, Hooking Wings, or Thundering Hammers look different during gaseous execution under the influence of CONTRACTION alone? What about under the influence of CONTRACTION and CONJUGATION at the same time?)

    FYI -- "the Five C's", "Circles of Confluence/Confluence of Circles", "Escalator Parking Spaces", "Chaining", and "Path of the Arc/Arc of the Path" are among some key core concepts that were being explored with Mr. P. prior to his passing, and relate to how Mr. Parker represented his own movement in his mind during it's execution. If you ever wanted a peek inside his head to see what was going on in his thoughts while he was moving or thinking about his own movement, here's a head start.

    Talk amongst yourselves.
    My buddies and I were just talking about "orbital compression" last week. I'm guessing it's under "contracting"?
    Great post, Dr. Dave.
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    Default Re: The Five C's, and the 3rd State of Motion

    Quote Originally Posted by Mikael151 View Post
    My buddies and I were just talking about "orbital compression" last week. I'm guessing it's under "contracting"?
    Great post, Dr. Dave.
    Hey, we were going over that in class last week, as well...
    Great minds....
    Sorry for the sort-of thread hijack, back to the grindstone then...

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    Default Re: The Five C's, and the 3rd State of Motion

    Quote Originally Posted by Dr. Dave in da house View Post
    Attached to the 3RD STATE OF MOTION -- GASEOUS -- are aspects of movement that lead to TEMPORAL VARIANTS. These temporal variants might be best understood in language metaphor contexts, as decreasing the space between vowels or consonants. They are reductions in time, accomplished by altering and alternating rhythmic execution.

    The "Five C's" are things we can do to movement in the gaseous state of execution that cause that movement to occur in shortened time frames, in tighter or larger spaces, with shorter or bigger circles, lines, semi-circles, or orbital elipses which have been elongated or reduced.

    Compound
    Contract
    Condense
    Consolidate
    Conjugate

    How are they similar and different? When would one be desirable over another? When might one be undesirable over another? How do the moves in a sequence chain together differently when under the influence of one or more of the Five C's? (i.e., how might Parting Wings. Five Swords, Hooking Wings, or Thundering Hammers look different during gaseous execution under the influence of CONTRACTION alone? What about under the influence of CONTRACTION and CONJUGATION at the same time?)

    FYI -- "the Five C's", "Circles of Confluence/Confluence of Circles", "Escalator Parking Spaces", "Chaining", and "Path of the Arc/Arc of the Path" are among some key core concepts that were being explored with Mr. P. prior to his passing, and relate to how Mr. Parker represented his own movement in his mind during it's execution. If you ever wanted a peek inside his head to see what was going on in his thoughts while he was moving or thinking about his own movement, here's a head start.

    Talk amongst yourselves.
    This is a great topic. I'm really not sure what the answers are, but that is all the more reason why it is a great topic to kick around.

    My basic understanding of the gaseous state of motion is that the movement can expand or contract to fill the given volume. This is similar to, but adds upon the liquid state of motion.

    These five C's are really more similar than they are different. They all refer to shrinking the gas and putting into a more compact form. It would be interesting, however, to tease out the fine differences.

    I will start with compounding. In compounding we take two movements and make them one. For example, in five sword we could compound the inward block, with an inward hammerfist to the face on the way to the block.

    This is very similar to conjugation where you take two moves and make them blur together. It's not dissimilar to conjugating two words (like I just did). In another example, we could conjugate the first two moves of five swords. By making the first inward block a thrusting block (rather than hammering) we could go straight into the handsword to the neck.

    Anybody else want to take a shot at the other 3 C's?

    Also if the 5 C's are all examples of the motion getting more dense, what would their opposites be? How would we go about describing the methods of making the motion less dense? A simple would be to look up the opposites of compound, contract, condense, consolidate, and conjugate? Sounds like I need a thesaurus!

    Thanks again Dave for the great post and topic!

    -John
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    Default Re: The Five C's, and the 3rd State of Motion

    How about the five D's...

    1. Disunite
    2. Dilute
    3. Dilate
    4. Dissect
    5. Divide

    Put that in your pipe and smoke it!
    (Okay, not literally, for all the kids out there...)
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    Default Re: The Five C's, and the 3rd State of Motion

    Thanks for a thought provoking topic.
    Quality outweighs quantity every time.

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    Default Re: The Five C's, and the 3rd State of Motion

    Greetings.

    The "Five C's" are things we can do to movement in the gaseous state of execution that cause that movement to occur in shortened time frames, in tighter or larger spaces, with shorter or bigger circles, lines, semi-circles, or orbital elipses which have been elongated or reduced.

    Compound
    Contract
    Condense
    Consolidate
    Conjugate

    How are they similar and different? When would one be desirable over another? When might one be undesirable over another? How do the moves in a sequence chain together differently when under the influence of one or more of the Five C's?
    I think it would be beneficial to define these processes as they apply to martial movement. This is because in different uses of the terms the process that is metaphorically referred to might be different.

    More importantly, the processes described can be used as mechanisms to help the process of improving the performance (speed, power, angles, accuracy, penetration, rhythm, manipulation and control aspects, etc.) of martial movements. Thus specific definitions would be much more useful for this application...

    And also for answering the questions asked for us to talk amongst ourselves, as requested.

    Also, it is important to have a clear understanding of what is meant with the Analogy of Solid/Liquid/Gas (also, the Analogy of Print/Script/Shorthand) as it pertains to martial movement.

    From the Encyclopedia of Kenpo:

    ANALOGY OF SOLID/LIQUID/GAS—This analogy is used to help students understand motion from a different perspective. It compares motion with the three states of water (H2O)—solid (ice), liquid, and gas (steam). Movements that are rigid and powerful can be compared to ice. They are solid in their execution. Those moves that flow like script writing can be compared to liquid, which not only flows, but seeks its own level. Moves that are simultaneously executed in several directions can be compared to the gaseous state of H2O. Water in its gaseous state seeks its volume. Likewise, moves that simultaneously seek their range in several directions can be considered to be the gaseous state of motion.

    So since we work with various analogies, there are various definitions and processes that could be attributed to the Five C's.

    Confusion and Madness would ensue.

    Thus I request clarification of what is meant with the gaseous state of movement and definitions of the Five C's.

    Or I could mind read them and start from there... and give specific examples in techniques of how the alterations of the paths would gain, loose or change performance.

    Talking amongst myselves,

    Juan M. Mercado

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    Default Re: The Five C's, and the 3rd State of Motion

    Quote Originally Posted by profesormental View Post
    Greetings.



    I think it would be beneficial to define these processes as they apply to martial movement. This is because in different uses of the terms the process that is metaphorically referred to might be different.

    More importantly, the processes described can be used as mechanisms to help the process of improving the performance (speed, power, angles, accuracy, penetration, rhythm, manipulation and control aspects, etc.) of martial movements. Thus specific definitions would be much more useful for this application...

    And also for answering the questions asked for us to talk amongst ourselves, as requested.

    Also, it is important to have a clear understanding of what is meant with the Analogy of Solid/Liquid/Gas (also, the Analogy of Print/Script/Shorthand) as it pertains to martial movement.

    From the Encyclopedia of Kenpo:

    ANALOGY OF SOLID/LIQUID/GAS—This analogy is used to help students understand motion from a different perspective. It compares motion with the three states of water (H2O)—solid (ice), liquid, and gas (steam). Movements that are rigid and powerful can be compared to ice. They are solid in their execution. Those moves that flow like script writing can be compared to liquid, which not only flows, but seeks its own level. Moves that are simultaneously executed in several directions can be compared to the gaseous state of H2O. Water in its gaseous state seeks its volume. Likewise, moves that simultaneously seek their range in several directions can be considered to be the gaseous state of motion.

    So since we work with various analogies, there are various definitions and processes that could be attributed to the Five C's.

    Confusion and Madness would ensue.

    Thus I request clarification of what is meant with the gaseous state of movement and definitions of the Five C's.

    Or I could mind read them and start from there... and give specific examples in techniques of how the alterations of the paths would gain, loose or change performance.

    Talking amongst myselves,

    Juan M. Mercado
    Gaseous state???

    I thought that was what happened after the chinese buffet...



    Discuss that!
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    Default Re: The Five C's, and the 3rd State of Motion

    Quote Originally Posted by KenpoMD
    Gaseous state???

    I thought that was what happened after the chinese buffet...



    Discuss that!
    Unfortunately, the biochemical processes in this instance do not have much to do with the biomechanical processes of martial movement.

    Yet as chemical weapons, they can be of use.

    Topic discussed, as requested.

    Juan M. Mercado

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    Default Re: The Five C's, and the 3rd State of Motion

    Quote Originally Posted by KenpoMD View Post
    I will start with compounding. In compounding we take two movements and make them one. For example, in five sword we could compound the inward block, with an inward hammerfist to the face on the way to the block.
    Incorrect sir: In "Motion-Kenpo" terms, the description you gave would describe "Prefixing," not "Compounding" sir.

    “Compounding,” is the insertion of additional moves that are within the flow, or sequence of an action. These inserted moves are executed simultaneously with the base movement of the action.

    A simple example might be “stomping” on someone’s foot, at the same time you strike with a heel-palm to the head. The heel-palm is the action that is “compounded,” by the simultaneous stomp to the foot.
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    Default Re: The Five C's, and the 3rd State of Motion

    Quote Originally Posted by Doc View Post
    Incorrect sir: In "Motion-Kenpo" terms, the description you gave would describe "Prefixing," not "Compounding" sir.

    “Compounding,” is the insertion of additional moves that are within the flow, or sequence of an action. These inserted moves are executed simultaneously with the base movement of the action.

    A simple example might be “stomping” on someone’s foot, at the same time you strike with a heel-palm to the head. The heel-palm is the action that is “compounded,” by the simultaneous stomp to the foot.
    Thanks for the insight. If I understand correctly the key distinguishing feature between my example and yours is the timing?? With compounding being distinguished by simultaneous delivery of the additional movement.

    I see how the example I gave would be consistent with "prefixing." In looking at your example would it not be consistent with "inserting" a movement. If so, what is the difference if any between a compounded and an inserted movement?

    Looking forward to your answer...
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    Default Re: The Five C's, and the 3rd State of Motion

    Quote Originally Posted by profesormental View Post
    unfortunately, the biochemical processes in this instance do not have much to do with the biomechanical processes of martial movement.

    Yet as chemical weapons, they can be of use.

    Topic discussed, as requested.

    Juan m. Mercado
    I think this is why international treaties forbid the use of chemical warfare!
    Last edited by KenpoMD; 07-17-2008 at 11:43 PM. Reason: My smilies didn't work!
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    Default Re: The Five C's, and the 3rd State of Motion

    Thinking about this further, wouldn't consolidating bear a close resemblance to deleting? Is there a relationship between the equation formula and the five C's.

    It would seem that the equation formula would still apply to the gaseous state of movement. Would it not?
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    Default Re: The Five C's, and the 3rd State of Motion

    Greetings.

    So now we have one definition offered.

    Quote Originally Posted by El Gran Doktah
    “Compounding,” is the insertion of additional moves that are within the flow, or sequence of an action. These inserted moves are executed simultaneously with the base movement of the action.
    I agree with this definition, as it offers a process to improve performance of martial motion, taking into account that the delivery maintains anatomically optimal martial movements.

    So we need 4 more. Plus a discussion on the gaseous state of movement.

    Once this is done, we can discuss and be on the same page.

    I'll give a crack at "Contract": The decrease in length of a circular or elliptic path of action. This can be done by contouring or silhouetting closer to the attacker's body, maneuvers and/or "rounding corners", among other methods.

    What examples can you think where contracting in the way defined can decrease time of execution?

    Hope this helps.

    Juan M. Mercado

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    Default Re: The Five C's, and the 3rd State of Motion

    Quote Originally Posted by profesormental View Post
    Greetings.

    So now we have one definition offered.



    I agree with this definition, as it offers a process to improve performance of martial motion, taking into account that the delivery maintains anatomically optimal martial movements.

    So we need 4 more. Plus a discussion on the gaseous state of movement.

    Once this is done, we can discuss and be on the same page.

    I'll give a crack at "Contract": The decrease in length of a circular or elliptic path of action. This can be done by contouring or silhouetting closer to the attacker's body, maneuvers and/or "rounding corners", among other methods.

    What examples can you think where contracting in the way defined can decrease time of execution?

    Hope this helps.

    Juan M. Mercado
    I am working on a short vid to show the various aspects of motion associated with each term. Not being evasive; just been busy. I hope to have the vid shot Sat, posted Sun or Mon. Some of these bits have been addressed in part on some other threads. Importing them might help, but might also just confuse the issue more than it is.

    I apologize for the delay, and hope you will forgive me if I require a little more time.

    Regards,

    Dave
    Clear mind, clear movement. Mastery of the Arts is mastery over the Self. That in this moment, this motion, the thoughts, memories, impulses and passions that cloud the mind must yield to the clarity of purpose, and purity of motion.

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    Default Re: The Five C's, and the 3rd State of Motion

    Quote Originally Posted by KenpoMD View Post
    Thanks for the insight. If I understand correctly the key distinguishing feature between my example and yours is the timing?? With compounding being distinguished by simultaneous delivery of the additional movement.

    I see how the example I gave would be consistent with "prefixing." In looking at your example would it not be consistent with "inserting" a movement. If so, what is the difference if any between a compounded and an inserted movement?

    Looking forward to your answer...
    Sir, to “insert” implies the placing of something somewhere where it is either “enclosed,” or has something on both sides to allow its placement, in-between, or “insertion.”

    For something in Kenpo to be considered an “Insert,” there must be major moves before and after the action that can functionally exist independent of, and exclusive of the insertion.

    “Compounded” moves must occur simultaneously, and although one is usually a major move, and the other a minor, they both may be major moves.
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    Default Re: The Five C's, and the 3rd State of Motion

    Doktah Dave.

    No need to apologize.

    I thank you for your time and devotion. I am extremely interested in any and all materials and training you have on your modelling project on Mr. Parker. And on your NLP experiments on Kenpo performance.

    I just hope to contribute to the discussion in a meaningful manner.

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