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    Default A Question To Doc About Basics

    speaking of basics doc,if you had to pick 5 kenpo seniors who do you think teach the basics closely to you or SGM Parker before he died. and why ?
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    Default Re: A Question To Doc About Basics

    I can't answer for Doc, but I don't think Mr. Parker generally taught basics from top to bottom. It seems to me that since most of Mr. Parker's students came from other arts, they more or less continued to do basics in a fashion similar to what they learned. Then figure he didn't see most people regularly, or if he did, eventually they ceased being regulars.

    And I don't think most people traveled to Mr. Parker's house to learn an inward block they've "known" since they were white belts. In my experience, the rare student is one willing to start over, especially the older someone gets and the longer they are invested in what they are doing.

    I don't know if there was many after the 50's or 60's that he actually taught 'his' basics to. (Keeping in mind those basics were in flux during those earlier years.) Even after Larry departed the West LA school, I believe Mr. Parker would only teach one of the advanced classes. He had others do the rest.

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    Default Re: A Question To Doc About Basics

    Quote Originally Posted by Drew View Post
    I can't answer for Doc, but I don't think Mr. Parker generally taught basics from top to bottom. It seems to me that since most of Mr. Parker's students came from other arts, they more or less continued to do basics in a fashion similar to what they learned. Then figure he didn't see most people regularly, or if he did, eventually they ceased being regulars.

    And I don't think most people traveled to Mr. Parker's house to learn an inward block they've "known" since they were white belts. In my experience, the rare student is one willing to start over, especially the older someone gets and the longer they are invested in what they are doing.

    I don't know if there was many after the 50's or 60's that he actually taught 'his' basics to. (Keeping in mind those basics were in flux during those earlier years.) Even after Larry departed the West LA school, I believe Mr. Parker would only teach one of the advanced classes. He had others do the rest.

    First off interesting answer but that is not the answer to this question. Secondly this is the Amrican Kenpo Insights forum here on KenpoTalk and it is reserved for the answers of the contributors such as Doc, Dennis Connatser, Mike Lambert etc...
    Quality outweighs quantity every time.

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    Default Re: A Question To Doc About Basics

    Sorry Rob, missed that. On the other hand, I doubt he'll get any other answer. We'll see' I've been known to be wrong from time to time.

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    Default Re: A Question To Doc About Basics

    Quote Originally Posted by Drew View Post
    I can't answer for Doc, but I don't think Mr. Parker generally taught basics from top to bottom. It seems to me that since most of Mr. Parker's students came from other arts, they more or less continued to do basics in a fashion similar to what they learned. Then figure he didn't see most people regularly, or if he did, eventually they ceased being regulars.

    And I don't think most people traveled to Mr. Parker's house to learn an inward block they've "known" since they were white belts. In my experience, the rare student is one willing to start over, especially the older someone gets and the longer they are invested in what they are doing.

    I don't know if there was many after the 50's or 60's that he actually taught 'his' basics to. (Keeping in mind those basics were in flux during those earlier years.) Even after Larry departed the West LA school, I believe Mr. Parker would only teach one of the advanced classes. He had others do the rest.
    OK Mr. Runny Mouth, you lucked up this time, and happen to be correct. I've mentioned it many times. None started with Ed Parker AND stayed. None learned as a white belt beginner through black, AND then stayed for Parker's many refinement processes of the basics as an active student. Most just did basics as they understood them and, Parker was continuing to refine his basics until the day he passed. On any level, the process would have been difficult.

    We were working on the "Sophisticated Basics Videos," and I was doing voice over recordings at the radio station of some descriptions. He smiled at me and called me "Golden Voice," and "I'll see you when I get back from Hawaii.

    Side Note: Drew is an attorney and can't help himself. On that I'll take judicial notice.
    "Nothing is more dangerous than the conscientiously ignorant, or the sincerely stupid." - Martin Luther King Jr.

    "Knowledge speaks but wisdom listens." - Ed Parker Sr.

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    Default Re: A Question To Doc About Basics

    Quote Originally Posted by Doc View Post
    OK Mr. Runny Mouth, you lucked up this time, and happen to be correct.
    <spanked by newspaper>
    A little learning is a dangerous thing;
    drink deep, or taste not the Pierian spring:
    there shallow draughts intoxicate the brain,
    and drinking largely sobers us again. --Alexander Pope

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    Default Re: A Question To Doc About Basics

    Quote Originally Posted by Drew View Post
    <spanked by newspaper>
    An extremely late entry to this issue by a non-informed individual... er... that would be me...

    Drew, if I may call you Drew, at least he didn't, in the parlance of the latest telephone commercial, call you, "Mr. Stinky Fish Face". roflmao!!!!

    Sorry for jumnping in here Rob! I just couldn't hep it.

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    Default Re: A Question To Doc About Basics

    Quote Originally Posted by sigung86 View Post
    An extremely late entry to this issue by a non-informed individual... er... that would be me...

    Drew, if I may call you Drew, at least he didn't, in the parlance of the latest telephone commercial, call you, "Mr. Stinky Fish Face". roflmao!!!!

    Sorry for jumnping in here Rob! I just couldn't hep it.
    He's due in Southern Cal this week for lessons, so he'll get the message in its entirety.
    "Nothing is more dangerous than the conscientiously ignorant, or the sincerely stupid." - Martin Luther King Jr.

    "Knowledge speaks but wisdom listens." - Ed Parker Sr.

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    Default Re: A Question To Doc About Basics

    Quote Originally Posted by Doc View Post
    He's due in Southern Cal this week for lessons, so he'll get the message in its entirety.
    I'd like to report an 11-44....
    A little learning is a dangerous thing;
    drink deep, or taste not the Pierian spring:
    there shallow draughts intoxicate the brain,
    and drinking largely sobers us again. --Alexander Pope

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    Default Re: A Question To Doc About Basics

    Quote Originally Posted by Doc View Post
    OK Mr. Runny Mouth, you lucked up this time, and happen to be correct. I've mentioned it many times. None started with Ed Parker AND stayed. None learned as a white belt beginner through black, AND then stayed for Parker's many refinement processes of the basics as an active student. Most just did basics as they understood them and, Parker was continuing to refine his basics until the day he passed. On any level, the process would have been difficult.

    We were working on the "Sophisticated Basics Videos," and I was doing voice over recordings at the radio station of some descriptions. He smiled at me and called me "Golden Voice," and "I'll see you when I get back from Hawaii.

    Side Note: Drew is an attorney and can't help himself. On that I'll take judicial notice.
    I just gave my girlfriend that vid to check out. LOL
    Sean

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    Default Re: A Question To Doc About Basics

    Where can that video be found? It sounds important!
    Hands on Healer

    "If you can not be King be a healer."

    "The hands of the King are the hands of a healer"

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    Default Re: A Question To Doc About Basics

    I found a site in Chile that sells a DVD holding both VHS's, but I couldn't figure out how to buy it (it would help if I spoke Spanish)
    -David C
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    Default Re: A Question To Doc About Basics

    Those interested in this rare set of gems can contact Dennis Conatser... I believe he can help a few out if they need it.

    Dan

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    Default Re: A Question To Doc About Basics

    Quote Originally Posted by sigung86 View Post
    Those interested in this rare set of gems can contact Dennis Conatser... I believe he can help a few out if they need it.

    Dan
    Yeah, I have a couple copies of the vids, but could probably benefit from transferring them to a DVD digital format.
    "Nothing is more dangerous than the conscientiously ignorant, or the sincerely stupid." - Martin Luther King Jr.

    "Knowledge speaks but wisdom listens." - Ed Parker Sr.

    "It's much easier to quote, than to know." - Ron Chapél


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    Default Re: A Question To Doc About Basics

    alrighty, to rephrase the original question. who do you believe sir, has/teaches the most sound basics, and why?
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    Default Re: A Question To Doc About Basics

    Quote Originally Posted by madeku View Post
    alrighty, to rephrase the original question. who do you believe sir, has/teaches the most sound basics, and why?
    Based on my extensive knowledge of the individuals efforts and basics, I'd have to say - Me!

    I haven't watched anyone teach basics, but can only infer by the products produced, what if any basics have been taught, implemented, and inculcated into students.

    The best knowledge I have is looking at my own work, and recognizing principles I do not see, in general, in others. But then that is only from my own limited perspective, being too concerned with my own students and work to be concerned about what others do, or do not do.

    There are many good practitioners who cannot produce the student capable of doing what they themselves can do. So is it teaching, effort, ability, or is proper teaching an impediment to business? In many cases, it is the latter.

    I had a visitor from very famous and well known Kenpo master's home school this past weekend. This visitor was of high black belt rank. We spoke of basics and I demonstrated the proper execution of "how" to step back into a neutral bow. We compared methods, and my method was functionally superior. The observation of the student was astute. They said, "Students only want to hurry up to get to the next technique. I guess if we taught good basics, people would get bored and leave." The statement was true, but the implication was that the "good basics" were known, but excluded for business reasons of expediency and retention. But this person had been around for decades, so why didn't they know them? Perhaps how to teach, and the knowledge of good basics isn't as common a knowledge as some think. I know for a fact that Mr. Parker didn't generally teach them, so where, if they exist, did the come from?

    I've been all over the world, and I can tell you, regardless of style, good anatomical basics don't seem to exist in general, anywhere in any style, but especially in the "business styles."
    "Nothing is more dangerous than the conscientiously ignorant, or the sincerely stupid." - Martin Luther King Jr.

    "Knowledge speaks but wisdom listens." - Ed Parker Sr.

    "It's much easier to quote, than to know." - Ron Chapél


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    Default Re: A Question To Doc About Basics

    So it's not just here in America then, Doc?

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    Default Re: A Question To Doc About Basics

    Doc,

    Since we are here discussing basics; if you have the time-I'm interested in the proper mechanics of the classic uppercut. I've seen a lot of youtube vids where, say in Five Swords, an individual will throw an "uppercut" that looks more like a "vertical" punch.
    I'm not convinced that those who punch more "vertically" would get the result needed to "feed" the next move in the ideal tech. Wouldn't that push the opponent out of the way in a real life confrontation?
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    Default Re: A Question To Doc About Basics

    Quote Originally Posted by Black St1300 View Post
    So it's not just here in America then, Doc?
    No sir. One of the things that really bothers me is how so much is made about the evolutionary splinter and commercialization of some of Mr. Parker's work. Historically, Mr. Parker was just following the historical path that all arts have taken at some point, by splintering into a more commercial sport version while maintaining the "true" art on a much smaller and exclusive scale. Historically, all arts have dome this on some level even to the de-facto extinction of the "root" art that contains the real information and knowledge.

    The original Warrior Samurai Arts of Japan begat us the lesser and weaponless (art) jiujitsu, which begat the secondary school (sport) judo, which is the root of Brazilian (sport) jiujitsu. The other splinter from jiujitsu would be (art) Aikido in its various forms, but the Samurai Arts also gave us on the weapons side of the splinter, Iaido, (art) and (sport) Kendo. Now the Warrior Samurai Arts are essentially extinct as an example.

    Everywhere you look you can find further examples. The Chinese Sciences that gave us such things as acupuncture, has seen their fighting sciences become popularized as the (sport/art) "wushu." Koreans for a simple example have gone from Tang Soo Do (art) to the popular (sport) Tae Kwon Do.

    Even the formerly immune arts of Indonesia have begat Silat based arts with commercial appeal, and Japanese Style belt rankings never found in the arts historical and cultural traditions.

    More recently in the Pacific Rim we have a more eclectic blend of traditional arts, that have splintered into various empty hand or limited weapon stick arts of many levels of practicality relative to a modern society.

    In the case of Ed Parker, his teacher stripped the traditional arts he learned and shifted philosophically to spend time on only what he found value in the street in his own understanding. Parker, while continuing his own personal evolution of a more complete self-defense art, splintered off the commercial art that has become known (erroneously) as EPAK.

    Anyone that has seen either episodes of the two "documentary" series running on cable, can't help but see the commercial appeal infused into all of the arts that somehow always culminate in a sport contest where all the style look pretty much the same.
    "Nothing is more dangerous than the conscientiously ignorant, or the sincerely stupid." - Martin Luther King Jr.

    "Knowledge speaks but wisdom listens." - Ed Parker Sr.

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    Default Re: A Question To Doc About Basics

    Quote Originally Posted by Mikael151 View Post
    Doc,

    Since we are here discussing basics; if you have the time-I'm interested in the proper mechanics of the classic uppercut. I've seen a lot of youtube vids where, say in Five Swords, an individual will throw an "uppercut" that looks more like a "vertical" punch.
    I'm not convinced that those who punch more "vertically" would get the result needed to "feed" the next move in the ideal tech. Wouldn't that push the opponent out of the way in a real life confrontation?
    The punch that many refer to as an "uppercut" in the technique of the discussion is erroneous. Mr. Parker himself referred to the punch as an "inverted horizontal punch" in written material in the description of basics I saw and have. Part of the mistake comes from improper interpretation of material by "teachers," or people who consider themselves "instructors."

    You are correct sir. The technique "Five Swords," as I understand it calls for an "inverted" horizontal punch, or in some instances a "vertical."

    The mechanics of the punch are relatively simple.

    Beginning from a "chambered" or "Hip Indexed" position, the punch comes forward with the forearm "riding" the rib-cage palm up parallel to the floor.

    This inverted punch only has efficacy until the body anatomically mechanically "needs" to begin the process of rotating the forearm as the arm is "extended" forward into the next depth zone. This anatomical mandates occurs as the elbow clears the rib-cage and the upper portion of the arm "biceps" shift beyond a relative proximal 45-degree angle, thus losing anatomical back-up mass for the strike.

    From this point the arm rotates into the "vertical" position which is limited and retarded in its extension by muscles, along with the radial and ulnar bones of the forearm.

    From this fully extended vertical posture the arm rotates bringing the hand ultimately upon completion and follow through, to a 180-degree reversal palm down hand position.

    This is important because the "uppercut" punch is not a product of the extension of the elbow joint, but instead comes from the rotation of the shoulder joint.

    Therefor, as the "inverted horizontal" begins anatomically to move into the depth range where it should begin to rotate to the vertical should you want to continue into the next depth zone, it shifts to a shoulder rotation and swings on the joint upward with the elbow joint "fused."

    Upon completion of the action, it takes on the physical posture outwardly of a "vertical outward block," however it would lack the physical efficacy of an outward block because of the Indexed manner it assumed the posture.
    "Nothing is more dangerous than the conscientiously ignorant, or the sincerely stupid." - Martin Luther King Jr.

    "Knowledge speaks but wisdom listens." - Ed Parker Sr.

    "It's much easier to quote, than to know." - Ron Chapél


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