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    Default Re: A Question To Doc About Basics

    Yall, wake me when you get back to how to execute Kenpo. Life's way to short to spend time unwrapping conundrums wrapped in a riddle wearing a gi.
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    Default Re: A Question To Doc About Basics

    I got one for you:

    From Sword and Hammer, why is dropping the chin prior to turning the head towards 3:00 more effective for providing structural integrity than just turning the head towards 3:00?
    Also along these lines, in stance set why is it not necessary to drop the chin when indexing the head to do the 180 cover (6 to 12 or 3 to 9) but necessary to do the 90 cover (12 to 3 or 9 to 12 etc.)?

    I have experienced and accept that my structural integrity is better when dropping the chin when changing my focus 90 degrees as a part of the index but I still don't understand why.
    And does this only apply to outside cover situations?

    Extrapolating, I wouldn't think the chin drop necessarily would need to be done on an inside cover since we are returning our head to essentially a neutral position (head relative to shoulders) as we aquire our focus before retreating to the neutral bow.

    Much respect and thanx.
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    Default Re: A Question To Doc About Basics

    Greetings.

    In the current SL-Kenpo curriculum, you would have to wait to brown belt to get that explanation as Sword and Hammer is taught...

    Yet you practice that head index since Stance Set 101.

    The short answer is that you naturally brace when someone surprises you and puts their hands on you from the side... your shoulders naturally, because of the startle reflex, go up to protect the head, the chin goes down, and you look at what the hell startled you. You are using and linking your natural, aligned and strong natural reflex movements to the Martial Skills that you are training.

    From there, you can turn and do any retaliation, with the accompanying Indexes and BAMs.

    Hope that helps. Doc can elaborate... lack of sleep and rest is getting to me...

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    Default Re: A Question To Doc About Basics

    Quote Originally Posted by punkmonkey View Post
    I got one for you:

    From Sword and Hammer, why is dropping the chin prior to turning the head towards 3:00 more effective for providing structural integrity than just turning the head towards 3:00?
    Also along these lines, in stance set why is it not necessary to drop the chin when indexing the head to do the 180 cover (6 to 12 or 3 to 9) but necessary to do the 90 cover (12 to 3 or 9 to 12 etc.)?

    I have experienced and accept that my structural integrity is better when dropping the chin when changing my focus 90 degrees as a part of the index but I still don't understand why.
    And does this only apply to outside cover situations?

    Extrapolating, I wouldn't think the chin drop necessarily would need to be done on an inside cover since we are returning our head to essentially a neutral position (head relative to shoulders) as we aquire our focus before retreating to the neutral bow.

    Much respect and thanx.
    In human anatomy the head is unique and is known as the "X-factor" in SL-Kenpo because it has such a profound effect on directional structural body mechanics and structural preferences. The skull houses the cpu brain as well as all of the major PNF sensors of vision, hearing, smell, taste, as well as tactile input through the epidermis. In addition to those sensors, it also mechanically functions as a directional indicator for the rest of the body, or "rudder" if you will. Where you point your"rudder" is where the body tends to go when moving, and provides unconscious structure in that direction in response. This "rudder" also plays a major role in any startle reflex response to external stimuli, and reacts to assess surrounding circumstances when activated or engaged through the autonomic nervous system. A loud noise, for example, that occurs to your right will illicit a primary response, followed immediately by a secondary response. The legs will bend sharply, the arms will retreat back to protect the rib-cage as the hands move toward the head. The shoulders will rise upward to surround the head, as the head retreats downward and the chin drops. Your secondary response from the Startle Reflex created posture will be to turn your head to continue your assessment of the stimuli visually. It occurs very rapidly and is not within your conscious control. Although not as explosive, and depending on the level of aggression, a grab to your shoulder illicit's the same bio-mechanical responses, even if only nuero-muscularly subcutaneously. The body will begin to take its "fight or flight" assessment at this point and determines the level of threat and begin to "Brace" itself in the direction the treat is perceived to come from.

    I believe when you leave these things out of training, and ignore basic body function then you are attempting to train the body to bypass things that it cannot, and therefore you are not creating useable synapsis that will be available under stressful startle reflex activity, and it will ultimately be over-riden by an adrenal dump causing the body to stutter when you need it to perform. By knowing "how" the body responds and making it a part of the training, we insure that reality doesn't conflict with training and we thus are simply "extending" the Startle Reflex response which the body recognizes into useable counter measures of the self-defense technique strategy.

    The body utilizes this rudder or "X-Factor" in all movement and angle changes, but not in the same way. A Startle Reflex event that occurs behind you, for example will illicit the primary response first, but the secondary response will require the body to turn around for the secondary response. Therefore structure is not achieved by dropping the chin, and may be achieved by simply turning the head with movement of the body, along with our extended reflex mechanisms to max the structure.

    The human machine, and all of its many appendages, including the "X-Factor" can only achieve significant nuero-muscular structure predicated on specific angles of 45, 90, and 180-degrees on a 3-dimensional plane. Any other angle will fail.

    Does that help sir? If it does, tell Drew so he'll stop bugging me.
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    Default Re: A Question To Doc About Basics

    So...those who teach that the Startle Reflex should be supressed (or attempted to be) are barking up the wrong tree?
    "To be, rather than to seem"

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    Default Re: A Question To Doc About Basics

    Quote Originally Posted by Doc View Post
    Does that help sir? If it does, tell Drew so he'll stop bugging me.
    What can I say, he's just not happy with it just working...
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    drink deep, or taste not the Pierian spring:
    there shallow draughts intoxicate the brain,
    and drinking largely sobers us again. --Alexander Pope

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    Default Re: A Question To Doc About Basics

    Quote Originally Posted by MarkC View Post
    So...those who teach that the Startle Reflex should be supressed (or attempted to be) are barking up the wrong tree?
    If your are screwing with the startle reflex in the first place you made a mistake...
    so you at the point of recovering when you have to deal with the startle reflex.
    The best way to deal with it is to avoid being in the situation that you will be dealing with it in the first place.
    but Like Doc says in his post I do not think you can eliminate the startle factor once you are in that position, but working off of it and extending it is what you need to get used to doing.
    the startle reflex is my friend... I love clapping my hands in front of a persons face at the very moment I dive for a double leg takedown... their eyes will always shut...without fail... even pro mma fighters who know what is going on....

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    Default Re: A Question To Doc About Basics

    Quote Originally Posted by MarkC View Post
    So...those who teach that the Startle Reflex should be supressed (or attempted to be) are barking up the wrong tree?
    It's not that they teach its suppression, but instead their lack of knowledge precludes them from even taking it into consideration. They come up with all these scenarios that the body will contradict, and it adds to the dysfunctionality of an already inept and ignorant perspective. It is most common in applications where an attacker makes physical contact with his victim before the scenario begins. Many advocate moving quickly or even first, as if having an all aware sixth sense of impending assaults, all the time, 24/7 is natural, or that it is possible to train to such a heightened level that allows such action. It is not possible. While we may train to shorten our secondary response time, our primary startle reflex is hard-wired into our genetic code.
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    Default Re: A Question To Doc About Basics

    Quote Originally Posted by Doc View Post
    In human anatomy the head is unique and is known as the "X-factor" in SL-Kenpo because it has such a profound effect on directional structural body mechanics and structural preferences. The skull houses the cpu brain as well as all of the major PNF sensors of vision, hearing, smell, taste, as well as tactile input through the epidermis. In addition to those sensors, it also mechanically functions as a directional indicator for the rest of the body, or "rudder" if you will. Where you point your"rudder" is where the body tends to go when moving, and provides unconscious structure in that direction in response. This "rudder" also plays a major role in any startle reflex response to external stimuli, and reacts to assess surrounding circumstances when activated or engaged through the autonomic nervous system. A loud noise, for example, that occurs to your right will illicit a primary response, followed immediately by a secondary response. The legs will bend sharply, the arms will retreat back to protect the rib-cage as the hands move toward the head. The shoulders will rise upward to surround the head, as the head retreats downward and the chin drops. Your secondary response from the Startle Reflex created posture will be to turn your head to continue your assessment of the stimuli visually. It occurs very rapidly and is not within your conscious control. Although not as explosive, and depending on the level of aggression, a grab to your shoulder illicit's the same bio-mechanical responses, even if only nuero-muscularly subcutaneously. The body will begin to take its "fight or flight" assessment at this point and determines the level of threat and begin to "Brace" itself in the direction the treat is perceived to come from.

    I believe when you leave these things out of training, and ignore basic body function then you are attempting to train the body to bypass things that it cannot, and therefore you are not creating useable synapsis that will be available under stressful startle reflex activity, and it will ultimately be over-riden by an adrenal dump causing the body to stutter when you need it to perform. By knowing "how" the body responds and making it a part of the training, we insure that reality doesn't conflict with training and we thus are simply "extending" the Startle Reflex response which the body recognizes into useable counter measures of the self-defense technique strategy.

    The body utilizes this rudder or "X-Factor" in all movement and angle changes, but not in the same way. A Startle Reflex event that occurs behind you, for example will illicit the primary response first, but the secondary response will require the body to turn around for the secondary response. Therefore structure is not achieved by dropping the chin, and may be achieved by simply turning the head with movement of the body, along with our extended reflex mechanisms to max the structure.
    Interesting as always sir.
    Taking this information into account and not focusing on the appropriate footwork. Would it be correct to say that in Short Form 1, 90 degree covers (e.g. 12 o'clock to 9 o'clock) would require dropping and rolling the chin to look left or right as required. However 180 degree covers (e.g. 3 o'clock to 9 c'clock) do not need to drop the chin and just turn the head sideways to look behind?
    Cheers Dominic

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    Default Re: A Question To Doc About Basics

    Quote Originally Posted by Dominic View Post
    Interesting as always sir.
    Taking this information into account and not focusing on the appropriate footwork. Would it be correct to say that in Short Form 1, 90 degree covers (e.g. 12 o'clock to 9 o'clock) would require dropping and rolling the chin to look left or right as required. However 180 degree covers (e.g. 3 o'clock to 9 c'clock) do not need to drop the chin and just turn the head sideways to look behind?
    Cheers Dominic
    Correct sir. However, keep in mind we do not have "Short/Long" Forms in our curriculum, and use a belt level designation for forms and sets. What you are referring to, (as close as we get), would be 102 (Orange) Form. Your next lesson will include this form, and its proper execution. Although the footwork is the same as 101 (Yellow) Stance Set, which also matches "short from one," the execution of the blocks is proper and "different."
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    Default Re: A Question To Doc About Basics

    Quote Originally Posted by Doc View Post
    Everywhere you look you can find further examples. The Chinese Sciences that gave us such things as acupuncture, has seen their fighting sciences become popularized as the (sport/art) "wushu." Koreans for a simple example have gone from Tang Soo Do (art) to the popular (sport) Tae Kwon Do.
    Correction..

    Tae Kwon Do was not a modification of Tang Soo Do

    Both Tae Kwon Do and Tang Soo Do originated with Su Bak Do... though some think that Tae Kwon Do also has roots in a couple of other traditional Korean forms which I don't remember the name.

    Tang Soo Do was a modification of Su Bak Do by GM Hwang Kee

    He learned Japanese Ju Jitsu during the Japanese occupation of Korea, Later GM Hwang Kee moved to China to work in a train station where he learned Chinese arts. When he returned to Korea he developed Tang Soo Do as a combination of the three.

    Tang Soo Do meaning the way of the Tang (Chinese) fist.

    Just an FYI

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    Default Re: A Question To Doc About Basics

    No matter what ancient origins are supposedly there, both Tang Soo Do and Tae Kwon Do are heavily influenced by Japanese Karate more than about anything else.
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    Default Re: A Question To Doc About Basics

    Quote Originally Posted by MarkC View Post
    No matter what ancient origins are supposedly there, both Tang Soo Do and Tae Kwon Do are heavily influenced by Japanese Karate more than about anything else.
    No, I have to disagree.

    I can't comment much on Tae Kwon Do, But Tang Soo Do only really incorporated the Grappling/throws of the Japanese arts.. even then the Japanese Ju Jitsu was tempered with Chi Na from the Chinese influence.

    The footwork was a balance of Korean Su Bak do and Kung Fu the forms are very Chinese in style especially at the higher levels. The Kicks are cookie cutter Su Bak Do.

    Mr.Bunny
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    Default Re: A Question To Doc About Basics

    Quote Originally Posted by LuckyKBoxer View Post
    If your are screwing with the startle reflex in the first place you made a mistake...
    so you at the point of recovering when you have to deal with the startle reflex.
    The best way to deal with it is to avoid being in the situation that you will be dealing with it in the first place.
    but Like Doc says in his post I do not think you can eliminate the startle factor once you are in that position, but working off of it and extending it is what you need to get used to doing.
    the startle reflex is my friend... I love clapping my hands in front of a persons face at the very moment I dive for a double leg takedown... their eyes will always shut...without fail... even pro mma fighters who know what is going on....
    If your startle reflex has you curl up into a ball and crying, you need to screw with the startle reflex. Retraining, but not suppressing, is why we train at all.
    Sean

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    Default Re: A Question To Doc About Basics

    Quote Originally Posted by MarkC View Post
    No matter what ancient origins are supposedly there, both Tang Soo Do and Tae Kwon Do are heavily influenced by Japanese Karate more than about anything else.
    Mark, Tang Soo is a different animal more directly tied to China, and in fact pays respect to the Chinese of the Tang Dynasty, but my point was the progression culturally of nationalistic arts tends to spiral downward, not that they are directly related to each other. "Tang" was a Korean fighting art, while Tae kwon is a "do" sport created in the fifties to be just that.
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    Default Re: A Question To Doc About Basics

    Quote Originally Posted by KenpoChanger View Post
    If your startle reflex has you curl up into a ball and crying, you need to screw with the startle reflex. Retraining, but not suppressing, is why we train at all.
    Sean
    What you describe is not the startle reflex. You describe is the consequence of biology, neurology, and psychology. Although you are incorrect in your explanation, you are correct that proper training that includes stress inoculation can overcome this collapse.
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    Default Re: A Question To Doc About Basics

    Quote Originally Posted by MrBunny View Post
    No, I have to disagree.

    I can't comment much on Tae Kwon Do, But Tang Soo Do only really incorporated the Grappling/throws of the Japanese arts.. even then the Japanese Ju Jitsu was tempered with Chi Na from the Chinese influence.

    The footwork was a balance of Korean Su Bak do and Kung Fu the forms are very Chinese in style especially at the higher levels. The Kicks are cookie cutter Su Bak Do.

    Mr.Bunny
    Quote Originally Posted by MrBunny View Post
    Correction..

    Tae Kwon Do was not a modification of Tang Soo Do

    Both Tae Kwon Do and Tang Soo Do originated with Su Bak Do... though some think that Tae Kwon Do also has roots in a couple of other traditional Korean forms which I don't remember the name.

    Tang Soo Do was a modification of Su Bak Do by GM Hwang Kee

    He learned Japanese Ju Jitsu during the Japanese occupation of Korea, Later GM Hwang Kee moved to China to work in a train station where he learned Chinese arts. When he returned to Korea he developed Tang Soo Do as a combination of the three.

    Tang Soo Do meaning the way of the Tang (Chinese) fist.

    Just an FYI

    Mr.Bunny
    In my experience, this all depends on who you talk to and from whom they learned. Some guys I know that trained under 'old school' Koreans are really bitter toward what they see as the government take over 'their' authentic Korean martial art by TKD. On the other hand, the nationalistic and/or Olymplic-focused guys take a much different view.
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    Default Re: A Question To Doc About Basics

    Original point was just a correction that Tae Kwon Do was not a sport derived out of Tang Soo Do but rather out of Su Bak Do and (I had to look it up cause it was driving me nuts) more traditionally Moo Duk Kwon.

    The origins of Tang Soo Do and the influences that created it are not a matter of opinion, they were fairly clearly written about by GM Hwang Kee.

    Now.. Tae Kwon Do may be an entirely different story.. never studied it. Unlike Tang Soo Do.

    Mr.Bunny
    Last edited by MrBunny; 10-20-2010 at 11:29 AM. Reason: Lys-Dexia setting in.
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