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Thread: Duality in American Kenpo

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    Default Duality in American Kenpo

    Kenpo Seniors,

    This is a question I had been thinking about in my mind for a long time regarding American Kenpo, but didn't have the words to frame what I was thinking and how to ask this. The concepts in my mind became clear exactly how to ask regarding American Kenpo when I recently came across similar concepts within Jujitsu (I am still a beginning Jujitsu student). Once I understood how I wanted to ask, I finally did ask my Kenpo instructor.

    I also wish to get more feedback on this, so I would like to extend the same questions to the Kenpo Seniors of KenpoTalk.

    First, the background of the concept as I understand it before I extend this into questions at the end for you regarding American Kenpo. I am going to put into a quotation block the concepts I learned from Danzan Ryu Jujitsu that made this a little clearer for me and will provide the reasoning why I am asking regarding American Kenpo.
    This is the question I asked my Danzan Ryu Instructor:

    I've been reading the recent Kiai Echo magazine [a magazine devoted to Danzan Ryu and this particular issue focused upon this subject] and am left with a question concerning the duality of Kappo and Sappo (or healing and killing). Why are we taught some of the killing first, but do not learn the healing in our early training until later? If these concepts are the two sides of the same coin, why not teach them simultaneously?

    I got several answers that satisfied me with how different Danzan Ryu instructors determine the timing and setting of their own curricula. I also was told there are quite a few instructors who do not have much experience with the Kappo side anyway, so they do not teach that--cannot teach what is not well known. This led me to ask further about the whys, so I learned much more from both my instructor and my instructor's instructor regarding their views and experience.

    According to them, all Danzan Ryu black belts (not necessarily instructors) are encouraged to KNOW both, but not all of the DZR instructors TEACH both concepts.

    Some of them prefer to teach the Sappo only because that is what the majority of the students want--the ability to learn how to fight/defend. Because of how society view martial arts, these instructors familiar with both concepts will teach Sappo and just wait with the Kappo until their students are of sufficient rank and maturity. Few instructors will teach both concepts from the very beginning. My instructor and his instructor are integrating more Kappo along with their Sappo concepts during training.

    Along with the concept of Kappo and Sappo, I also learned that there is duality in other arts: The Hawaiian Lua (art of bone breaking) is paired with the Hawaiian Lomi Lomi (art of massage), as well as Seifukuijitsu (healing art of manipulation) being paired with Jujitsu (fighting art of manipulation).
    Does American Kenpo have such a duality? If so, is the "other side of training" reserved for black belt levels only, which would explain why I do not see such discussion of this topic within the colored belt levels? Mr. Ed Parker seemed to hint of this duality with some of his writings in the Infinite Insights books.

    Do you believe duality exists with American Kenpo? If so, when and how would this duality be learned and taught? If it exists, but is not traditionally taught, how would a Kenpo instructor become proficient with the "yin-yang" of American Kenpo? If not traditionally taught, does this mean such an instructor would have to go "outside of Kenpo" to learn?

    The reason why I feel this is really important for me to know is because I would like to become a very good American Kenpo instructor some day. Unfortunately, my Jujitsu instructor doesn't know a lot about Kenpo, so he cannot give me much guidance where Kenpo itself is concerned.

    - Ceicei
    Last edited by Ceicei; 11-06-2007 at 12:36 AM.
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    Default Re: Duality in American Kenpo

    Ceicei,

    You have touched on a very good topic. There is a healing side of the art. Please understand that most of the Black Belts dont know it or teach it. We are very good at inflicting injury thru self-defense, and that is the main concern for most. Kenpo is a fighting art,the healing aspects of the arts dont get much attention because we cant agree on the best way to preform a tech. One must also ask what aspect of healing is the focus,mental,emotional,physical of the attacker or of ourselves.

    My Respects
    Brad Marshall SP
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    Default Re: Duality in American Kenpo

    Quote Originally Posted by MARSHALLS KENPO View Post
    Ceicei,

    You have touched on a very good topic. There is a healing side of the art. Please understand that most of the Black Belts dont know it or teach it. We are very good at inflicting injury thru self-defense, and that is the main concern for most. Kenpo is a fighting art,the healing aspects of the arts dont get much attention because we cant agree on the best way to preform a tech. One must also ask what aspect of healing is the focus,mental,emotional,physical of the attacker or of ourselves.

    My Respects
    Thank you for your comments. You say that there is a healing side of the art. How do you develop that side? Which aspect do you consider that could be learned? If many Kenpo Black Belts do not know or teach the healing side, why doesn't Kenpo consider this to be important enough?

    Thank you,

    - Ceicei
    Studying martial arts is for life, not for the color of the belt.

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    Default Re: Duality in American Kenpo

    Quote Originally Posted by Ceicei View Post
    Thank you for your comments. You say that there is a healing side of the art. How do you develop that side? Which aspect do you consider that could be learned? If many Kenpo Black Belts do not know or teach the healing side, why doesn't Kenpo consider this to be important enough?

    Thank you,

    - Ceicei
    Those who do know, dont usually post that information. However they will discuss it off channels. Your post is being read, I expect you will here from them.

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    Default Re: Duality in American Kenpo

    Quote Originally Posted by MARSHALLS KENPO View Post
    Those who do know, dont usually post that information. However they will discuss it off channels. Your post is being read, I expect you will here from them.

    My Respects
    Thank you.

    - Ceicei
    Studying martial arts is for life, not for the color of the belt.

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    Default Re: Duality in American Kenpo

    Quote Originally Posted by Ceicei View Post
    Kenpo Seniors,

    This is a question I had been thinking about in my mind for a long time regarding American Kenpo, but didn't have the words to frame what I was thinking and how to ask this. The concepts in my mind became clear exactly how to ask regarding American Kenpo when I recently came across similar concepts within Jujitsu (I am still a beginning Jujitsu student). Once I understood how I wanted to ask, I finally did ask my Kenpo instructor.

    I also wish to get more feedback on this, so I would like to extend the same questions to the Kenpo Seniors of KenpoTalk.

    First, the background of the concept as I understand it before I extend this into questions at the end for you regarding American Kenpo. I am going to put into a quotation block the concepts I learned from Danzan Ryu Jujitsu that made this a little clearer for me and will provide the reasoning why I am asking regarding American Kenpo.


    Does American Kenpo have such a duality? If so, is the "other side of training" reserved for black belt levels only, which would explain why I do not see such discussion of this topic within the colored belt levels? Mr. Ed Parker seemed to hint of this duality with some of his writings in the Infinite Insights books.

    Do you believe duality exists with American Kenpo? If so, when and how would this duality be learned and taught? If it exists, but is not traditionally taught, how would a Kenpo instructor become proficient with the "yin-yang" of American Kenpo? If not traditionally taught, does this mean such an instructor would have to go "outside of Kenpo" to learn?

    The reason why I feel this is really important for me to know is because I would like to become a very good American Kenpo instructor some day. Unfortunately, my Jujitsu instructor doesn't know a lot about Kenpo, so he cannot give me much guidance where Kenpo itself is concerned.

    - Ceicei
    Thanks for the private "heads up" notice about this thread.

    When I took Okazaki Juijitsu starting back in the late 50's (which I continued until 1973) we had much healing technologies thrown in from the Japanese healing arts, chiropractic work and massage therapy.

    And it was NOT like what Ted Sumners is now teaching.

    (this is NOT an attack, just an observation. I have Ted's course and I've met him. A good man).

    It was much more it depth.

    We had the kapo (revival arts). We had how to put joints back into place. We had the basics of massage. We had methods of spinal manipulation. All students (back then) were required to have a current first aid card.

    Even in the 1904 book by kano, they had the killing arts and the arts of revival in the original first edition.

    When Dover came out with the 1943 edition, those two sections had been deleted with the explanation that "such evil technologies were no longer necessary".

    On to Kenpo Karate.

    I started it in 1970 and have been doing and training people in Kenpo for 37 years.

    I learned VIRTUALLY "NO" HEALING ARTS from kenpo, only killing arts.

    So I taught (and still teach) the Okazaki healing arts to my clients along with other pertinent energy modalities that I'm certified as a trainer in.

    If you need more, let me know.

    Dr. John M. La Tourrette

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    Default Re: Duality in American Kenpo

    Quote Originally Posted by MARSHALLS KENPO View Post
    Ceicei,

    You have touched on a very good topic. There is a healing side of the art. Please understand that most of the Black Belts dont know it or teach it. We are very good at inflicting injury thru self-defense, and that is the main concern for most. Kenpo is a fighting art,the healing aspects of the arts dont get much attention because we cant agree on the best way to preform a tech. One must also ask what aspect of healing is the focus,mental,emotional,physical of the attacker or of ourselves.

    My Respects
    Actually Mr. Marshall the only healing I've seen in Kenpo karate was when Al Tracy talked about Sig Kukuraugh (sorry about the sp?) and how he was the only remaining student alive that knew the Okazaki healing arts.

    I do disagree with Al on that.

    There is an entire organization, Okazaki Dan Zan Ryu Juijitsu (KoDenKan) that is very familiar with the Okazaki healing arts.

    Ted Sumner's has a dvd and a manual out on "healing" that he learned from Sig when Sig was in his 80's.

    Dr. John M. La Tourrette
    Ps. I do love the healing arts, which is why I post frequently on that topic whenever asked to do so.

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    Default Re: Duality in American Kenpo

    Quote Originally Posted by John M. La Tourrette View Post
    Actually Mr. Marshall the only healing I've seen in Kenpo karate was when Al Tracy talked about Sig Kukuraugh (sorry about the sp?) and how he was the only remaining student alive that knew the Okazaki healing arts.

    I do disagree with Al on that.

    There is an entire organization, Okazaki Dan Zan Ryu Juijitsu (KoDenKan) that is very familiar with the Okazaki healing arts.

    Ted Sumner's has a dvd and a manual out on "healing" that he learned from Sig when Sig was in his 80's.

    Dr. John M. La Tourrette
    Ps. I do love the healing arts, which is why I post frequently on that topic whenever asked to do so.
    Dr. John,

    I knew you could help Sir, Thank you
    Brad Marshall SP
    KKFI

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    Default Re: Duality in American Kenpo

    Quote Originally Posted by John M. La Tourrette View Post
    When I took Okazaki Juijitsu starting back in the late 50's (which I continued until 1973) we had much healing technologies thrown in from the Japanese healing arts, chiropractic work and massage therapy.

    And it was NOT like what Ted Sumners is now teaching.

    (this is NOT an attack, just an observation. I have Ted's course and I've met him. A good man).
    I realize that Mr. Sumners learned his methods that differ from how you learned. You say that what you learned is nothing like what Mr. Sumners teach. What type of healing arts does he emphasize?

    One of Mr. Sumners' students suggested I email Mr. Sumners for his feedback as well, so I shall do that. I sent him an email last night, but have not received his answers to my questions yet. I did get a "welcome" reply to my initial contact email, so I know he is friendly enough. I'm aware he is a busy man....

    It was much more it depth.

    We had the kapo (revival arts). We had how to put joints back into place. We had the basics of massage. We had methods of spinal manipulation. All students (back then) were required to have a current first aid card.
    This sounds like the Danzan version. Is it? What you've learned sounds like what I'd like to learn.

    I've heard some people say (of some types of) healing arts is something they can use to become a massage therapist. That is not the field I want to be in. I want to learn much more than just merely massage.
    Even in the 1904 book by kano, they had the killing arts and the arts of revival in the original first edition.

    When Dover came out with the 1943 edition, those two sections had been deleted with the explanation that "such evil technologies were no longer necessary".
    Why was this considered "evil" and no longer necessary? Was the healing arts considered too mystical? What was society like in the 40's to determine that certain things can be censored/removed from books?
    On to Kenpo Karate.

    I started it in 1970 and have been doing and training people in Kenpo for 37 years.

    I learned VIRTUALLY "NO" HEALING ARTS from kenpo, only killing arts.
    So why does the Kenpo community put so little attention to the healing side? Is it not at all necessary, or just does not fit with the primary purpose of Kenpo? When I read in Infinite Insights, it almost appears that Mr. Parker hinted at this duality. Did he even consider this duality, or was the healing arts something he had put aside to pick up later?
    So I taught (and still teach) the Okazaki healing arts to my clients along with other pertinent energy modalities that I'm certified as a trainer in.
    What caused you to explore the healing arts?
    If you need more, let me know.
    Dr. John M La Tourrette
    I have many more questions, but need to have some time to think them over and then I'll be back to ask, most likely tomorrow. Thank you so much!!

    - Ceicei
    Last edited by Ceicei; 11-08-2007 at 01:59 AM.
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    Default Re: Duality in American Kenpo

    How much of the healing arts is neurological? Some say the nervous system is the same as the energy flow, others say these two are just two totally different systems.

    To me, logically, the nervous system is what allows the human body to function; knowing what makes or breaks the various links along the system would heal or disrupt the other systems within the human body.

    If the energy flow (should this be called a system of its own?) is different and does not follow the same pathway as the nervous system, where or what does the energy control?

    Isn't the energy essentially a function of the "soul"? If not, then what is it?

    How does each system mentioned above contribute to the healing arts?

    - Ceicei
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    Default Re: Duality in American Kenpo

    Quote Originally Posted by Ceicei View Post
    How much of the healing arts is neurological? Some say the nervous system is the same as the energy flow, others say these two are just two totally different systems.

    To me, logically, the nervous system is what allows the human body to function; knowing what makes or breaks the various links along the system would heal or disrupt the other systems within the human body.

    If the energy flow (should this be called a system of its own?) is different and does not follow the same pathway as the nervous system, where or what does the energy control?

    Isn't the energy essentially a function of the "soul"? If not, then what is it?

    How does each system mentioned above contribute to the healing arts?

    - Ceicei
    I just love the scope of your inquiries, Ceicei. A good book to read if you'd like is "The Web That has No Weaver", by Ted Kaptchuk. Not definitive or complete, but an excellent overview of energy systems in the body, and how they are similar to and different from each other.

    Chi/Qi, or vital essence, has several forms. It interacts with other energy systems in the body such that one can influence another. It often gets used synonymously with blood perfusion, but that's not totally accurate; one can have deficient qi, but still have fine perfusion. The opposite, however, is not quite true; once blood perfusion starts lagging to an area, so typically too does chi/qi. Some, but not all, TCM models hold that blood is the carrier of chi.

    Also, there are different kinds of chi. "Defensive chi", for example, has been compromised when you start getting that yucky, achy feeling that comes with the onset of a cold. As chi is violated, there can be notable changes in the blood as well...for example, increases in bradykinins, histamines, leukotrienes, etc. Which came first? Still up for debate, but we know they run in packs.

    Different models of health care use what are referred to as different "portals of entry"....how we introduce a healing element to the body's systems, based often on why we theoretically think the body may be ill to begin with. Allopathic medicine uses blood pathways as the most favored portal of entry....injections or medicines that introduce corrective chemistry to the bodies bloodstream, so it finds it's way to target tissues. Chiropractors aim for the "supremacy of the nervous system", assuming that all parts in coherent communication with each other will enable the body to correct it's own dysfunctions, via activating the body's healing response. Acupuncture looks for portals of entry to chi, and finds them with pressure or puncture stimulation to meridians, or by the introduction of herbal medicines whose resonant energies ideally correspond to various meridian systems in the body. Osteopathic models posit blood flow to nerves and tissues as the supreme thing to aim for, and use some chiropractic-like techniques to aid the vaso vasorum in providing blood flow to nerve roots and compartments.

    Why do I mention these? Because many have found their way into kenpo in different lineages, via students who showed their instructors and classmates. I have a buddy who learned kappo/seifukujutsu under Kufferauth...that same buddy also learned the Shorinji kempo bodywork techniques, chiropractic manipulation (from me), Rolfing, osteopathic manipulitive technique (me again), SOT (yep, still me...what can I say...he has great talent for this stuff, and I selfishly wanted him to work on me, so I showed him how on friends and family), and so on. He's also a high-ranking kenpo professor and jujutsuka, and has added the stuff he's learned along the way to the seifukujutsu he teaches his students.

    I've watched a kenpo senior do better osteopathic and chiropractic manipulations on students than I've seen by "educated", licensed practitioners. Asked where he got it, some here, some there. And while it's not officially part of kenpo, some of the kenpo "downlines" incorporate it, teach it, pass it along. I include in my practice as a holistic healthcare provider "technology" from chiropractic, osteopathy, Rolfing, bodywork, energy medicine, chinese herbal medicine, naturopathy, and much more; I haven't yet had a student make it to the senior enough place where I would insist they learn it too, otherwise y'all would eventually hear after my demise that "folks from Crouch's lineage do that stretching & rubbing and cracking stuff to each other before and after class".

    As to the original question...energy flow, blood flow, and neurology run in interactive packs, with one affecting the others. If I do some deep tissue release on an old injury site, several things will happen. Breaking up adhesions will cause hyperemia (increased blood flow), and along with that, chi flow -- previously unable to flow freely to the affected area -- will improve. Pressure to the superficial and deep fascia will also supply information to the spinal nerve root ganglia and central nervous system, changing tonic reflexes in the treated area. Three systems effected by one interaction. Now, if I want to help a body flush the toxins released by the treatment and rebuild the area with healthy tissues, I can put the client on a naturopathic detox regimen, some Chinese herbal formulas for reduction of trauma-induced inflammation & improvement of microperfusion of blood and chi, and some simple foods to provide the body with good building blocks to generate new tissues with. A couple more systems interacted with in healing.

    Is it innately a part of kenpo? Not yet. But after my students get to a point, it will be...at least in my lineage.

    Be good,

    D.
    Clear mind, clear movement. Mastery of the Arts is mastery over the Self. That in this moment, this motion, the thoughts, memories, impulses and passions that cloud the mind must yield to the clarity of purpose, and purity of motion.

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    Default Re: Duality in American Kenpo

    Do you think we might find some time to talk about my back problems when I see you???

    -David
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    Default Re: Duality in American Kenpo

    Quote Originally Posted by DavidCC View Post
    Do you think we might find some time to talk about my back problems when I see you???

    -David
    Of course.
    Clear mind, clear movement. Mastery of the Arts is mastery over the Self. That in this moment, this motion, the thoughts, memories, impulses and passions that cloud the mind must yield to the clarity of purpose, and purity of motion.

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    Default Re: Duality in American Kenpo

    Ok, so am I understanding that qi/chi is involved with:

    1) Lymphatic system
    2) Neurologic system
    3) Blood circulatory system
    4) Osteopathic system
    5) Chiropractic system

    What other systems not listed should be included?

    Salute,

    - Ceicei
    Studying martial arts is for life, not for the color of the belt.

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    Default Re: Duality in American Kenpo

    Quote Originally Posted by Ceicei View Post
    Ok, so am I understanding that qi/chi is involved with:

    1) Lymphatic system
    2) Neurologic system
    3) Blood circulatory system
    4) Osteopathic system
    5) Chiropractic system

    What other systems not listed should be included?

    Salute,

    - Ceicei
    I see you are geting the response that you seek.
    Enjoy your search.
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    KKFI

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    Default Re: Duality in American Kenpo

    Quote Originally Posted by Ceicei View Post
    Ok, so am I understanding that qi/chi is involved with:

    1) Lymphatic system
    2) Neurologic system
    3) Blood circulatory system
    4) Osteopathic system
    5) Chiropractic system

    What other systems not listed should be included?

    Salute,

    - Ceicei
    How deep do you want to go?

    Consider there are multiple bodies, each interacting with the others. A physical body, and "emotional body", a "mental body", "energy body", etc. You see the evidfence of these in clinic settings; emotions locked into the body memeory as abnormal tensions around joints. You can crack the joint; stretch the joint; rub the joint; do deep tissue work on all the muscles that bridge the joint, dope the blood and neurochemistry that supply the structures surrounding the joint, all to no avail. Then you start exploring emotional components of the patients life, some resolution is reached, and the thingy resolves "spontaneously", all on it's own.

    Emotional body health practitioners = psychologists, counselors, etc.
    Mental Body Health practices = some forms of hypnosis, etc.
    Energy body practitioners = old school, such as kahuna, shaman, local folk healers, etc. New school = EFT, others like it.

    Then there's what's referred to as "prism healing", "prism wholeness", or "prism health". Some deep aspect of Self, corresponding to the idea of Soul, acts as a prism of energy moving into and through all of the systems and bodies. Working to embrace living as an authentic self opens this prism to higher, faster energies, and as they move through you, they realign systems naturally. A function of kenpo would be time spent in self-exploration, internal reflection, meditation in motion, and character refinement, learning to allow the natural self to come forward in new states of mind, and move us, for us. Sort of "giving the Wild Child a chance and a place to play". And in so doing, change the resonance of the vessel it's used as the medium for play.

    Interesting story I read the other day, with a spin on Book of Job. A boy who is to be tested throughout life is being whispered to / coached in his dreams by the Devil and God. The devil tells him he must be perfect to be worthy. God tells him he must drink in the beauty of creation to be complete. Interestig contrast of both means, ends, and purpose.

    D.
    Clear mind, clear movement. Mastery of the Arts is mastery over the Self. That in this moment, this motion, the thoughts, memories, impulses and passions that cloud the mind must yield to the clarity of purpose, and purity of motion.

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