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Thread: Buoyant Arm & Foot Position

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    Default Buoyant Arm & Foot Position

    Doc,

    Can you explain buoyant arm and foot position? I have read the basic definitions, but would love to hear more.

    Thanks
    "You can't account for everything, but you should account for the reasonably probable. Unfortunately for the unknowledgeable, those never ending 'what if's' will choke your thought process to death with useless information." - Doc

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    Default Re: Buoyant Arm & Foot Position

    Quote Originally Posted by HKphooey View Post
    Doc,

    Can you explain buoyant arm and foot position? I have read the basic definitions, but would love to hear more.

    Thanks
    Parts of the body, and in this case specifically the hands and feet, may be placed in postures that makes it anatomically impossible to settle and solidfy the body into a unified stance posture.
    "Nothing is more dangerous than the conscientiously ignorant, or the sincerely stupid." - Martin Luther King Jr.

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    Default Re: Buoyant Arm & Foot Position

    Quote Originally Posted by Doc View Post
    Parts of the body, ... may be placed in postures that makes it anatomically impossible to settle and solidfy the body into a unified stance posture.
    The TKD back stance comes to mind. The pelvic girdle is misaligned. You have to noticably force the elbows down to settle them, and still ...

    However, turn the rear foot forward @45' into hanme and everything settles into place.

    In AK, the cat stance as taught by most schools/systems seems to me to have this floating effect. Rock back and ballance on the rear foot while unweighting the front- like gently rocking in the waves in a light boat ...

    Is this the kind of thing you mean, Doc?

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    Default Re: Buoyant Arm & Foot Position

    Quote Originally Posted by thedan View Post
    The TKD back stance comes to mind. The pelvic girdle is misaligned. You have to noticably force the elbows down to settle them, and still ...

    However, turn the rear foot forward @45' into hanme and everything settles into place.

    In AK, the cat stance as taught by most schools/systems seems to me to have this floating effect. Rock back and ballance on the rear foot while unweighting the front- like gently rocking in the waves in a light boat ...

    Is this the kind of thing you mean, Doc?

    Dan C
    Bad postures = no alignment.

    The cat stance however can made to be as stable as any stance, when the posture is achieved correctly. I have no knowledge of the KD back stance variances.
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    Default Re: Buoyant Arm & Foot Position

    Back Stance- draw a right angle on the floor, open end to your right. Place your right foot on the lower leg (x axis) so that the heel is just against the upright leg (y axis). Now, place your left foot about a foots length ahead of the right and on the y axis. Left heel points to right, and left foot is 90' to right. Now, bring your hands up to guard as you load the right leg (@ 70/30) and TRY to relax in this stance.

    Hanme- this is an Aikido stance, and is also the basis for modern Japanese sword arts (in my limmited eposure, any way). Subtend the angle you drew on the floor so you have a 45' leg, and then turn the right foot to align with this new angle. You'll notice that you no longer have to try to relax in your guard.

    I'm thinking that the extreme foot position in the back stance misaligns the pelvic girdle, which, since it carries the entire body structure, throws everything out of whack. Makes body unification impossible.

    As to the cat stance, I no longer rock back into it. I activate and weight the front foot (something I learned here from bujuts) and try to keep positive forward engagement, even while doing a reaward foot maneuver. How does SL-4 do this stance, sir?

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    Default Re: Buoyant Arm & Foot Position

    doc, i'd welcome your thoughts on this and your teachings on the alignments within the cat stance.

    i've been taught by my tai chi teacher that to maintain both balance and mobility, there must always be counterbalance. the counter balance is not always equal in terms of physical presence (ie, mass or movement) but should be on equal terms in the mind.

    so, within the cat stance, you are really not shifting your weight 'back', but 'down' through your rear foot. that means there has to be an 'up', which is through your spine up through the crown of the head.

    the part that is actually going 'back' is the expansion of your lower back (ming men), which means there must be a 'forward' energy and that is found in your front knee.

    we can go on in further detail with arms, hands, feet, etc, but that is the idea that for every up is a down, every back is a forward. otherwise you'd either be unstable or unable to move.

    i am interested if this is consistent with your kenpo teachings..

    thanks,
    pete
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    Default Re: Buoyant Arm & Foot Position

    Quote Originally Posted by Doc View Post
    Parts of the body, and in this case specifically the hands and feet, may be placed in postures that makes it anatomically impossible to settle and solidfy the body into a unified stance posture.
    Doc,
    do you teach this as more of something to avoid (in yourself) or something to induce (in the other)?

    Is there a time when you would want your own self to be buoyant??

    Any experiments you can recommend to learn more about these positions? Is this part of AOD drill?
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    Default Re: Buoyant Arm & Foot Position

    Quote Originally Posted by DavidCC View Post
    Doc,
    do you teach this as more of something to avoid (in yourself) or something to induce (in the other)?
    Both. You should induce it constantly in an attacker when engaged.
    Is there a time when you would want your own self to be buoyant??
    It is a condition that cannot be avoided in human anatomy. The simple act of walking or mobility is a buoyant state. In the martial sciences all footwork, or the act of mobility is buoyant. Unfortunately for most, the state of buoyancy is present more often than not. This is one of many reasons why martial artist in general, and kenpoists specifically are "exploring" grappling options because their stances are failing them, and they are being taken down.

    A martial artist well versed in the basics of stances and footwork, should be capable of establishing a stable structure, and moving in that structure while maintaining a non-buoyant state of physical being. Essentially, moving from solid structure to solid structure, and compensating for buoyancy on demand.
    Is this part of AOD drill?
    The act of "settling" as some call it, and structure is a part of and mandated in everything.
    Any experiments you can recommend to learn more about these positions?
    Difficult because I cannot control and insure the experiement will include correct posture. (Everything matters)

    1. Stand in a GOOD Horse Stance, (whoe body posture)

    2. Place your right hand palm flat against your sternum.

    3. Have someone push against your stance from the front and feel your structures resistance.

    4. Turn your hand one quarter turn so so hand is palm down,base of the thumb touching your sternum.

    5. Repeat the resistance pressure.

    Conclusion: You should feel a weakened state in your overall ability to maintain your position. You are buoyant.

    Let em know. I choose the most basic of stances, that has no depth for the purposes of the experiment.
    "Nothing is more dangerous than the conscientiously ignorant, or the sincerely stupid." - Martin Luther King Jr.

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    Default Re: Buoyant Arm & Foot Position

    I will do that as soon as possible.

    I was specifically wondering if the strike to the bottom of the attacking arm in the AOD induces buoyancy? Or if there is primarily another mechanism at work there? and the the PAM gets you un-buoyant (rooted? settled?) again?

    dang I feel like an 6 year old playing with his dad's tools... I know he calls this a "screwdriver", but what's a "river" and how did it get screwed??????? ROFL
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    Default Re: Buoyant Arm & Foot Position

    Quote Originally Posted by pete View Post
    doc, i'd welcome your thoughts on this and your teachings on the alignments within the cat stance.

    i've been taught by my tai chi teacher that to maintain both balance and mobility, there must always be counterbalance. the counter balance is not always equal in terms of physical presence (ie, mass or movement) but should be on equal terms in the mind.
    That's typical of classical Chinese teaching. Reducing everything to esoteric or metaphoric terms. Although he is correct, the "mind equality" thing could be expressed better sir. I've heard it before, but choose to teach a more western, body first to engage the mind over vice versa. Reducing things to physical do's and don't's over 'mystical non-quatifiable concepts.'
    so, within the cat stance, you are really not shifting your weight 'back', but 'down' through your rear foot. that means there has to be an 'up', which is through your spine up through the crown of the head. the part that is actually going 'back' is the expansion of your lower back (ming men), which means there must be a 'forward' energy and that is found in your front knee. we can go on in further detail with arms, hands, feet, etc, but that is the idea that for every up is a down, every back is a forward. otherwise you'd either be unstable or unable to move.

    i am interested if this is consistent with your kenpo teachings..
    Not quite sure what you mean in your description but, my take is different based in human physics. You cannot step backwards without shifting your weight to the rear. Afterall you do have to put your foot down. The trick is to compensate with a correcting mechnism to bring the body back to a state of forward stability regardless of weight distribution. I do this demo in lecture sometimes standing on one leg, while someone pushes with their body against my hand.

    When forced to, by circumstance, to step backwards to a cat stance, you must utilize a mechanism similar to a PAM to redistribute the body weight and align the substructure for stability primarily on the singular limb. I suspect you may be doing this, but I express it in different terms sir.
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    Default Re: Buoyant Arm & Foot Position

    Quote Originally Posted by pete View Post
    i've been taught by my tai chi teacher that to maintain both balance and mobility, there must always be counterbalance. the counter balance is not always equal in terms of physical presence (ie, mass or movement) but should be on equal terms in the mind.

    so, within the cat stance, you are really not shifting your weight 'back', but 'down' through your rear foot. that means there has to be an 'up', which is through your spine up through the crown of the head.

    the part that is actually going 'back' is the expansion of your lower back (ming men), which means there must be a 'forward' energy and that is found in your front knee.
    I've been thinking about this, and it dovetails with my understanding of moving with positive forward engagement. Instead of rocking back into a cat, I now activate/engage the muscles in the front leg and push back and through. This positively weights, or roots, the trailing leg as well as having all muscular support either actively working or alert, as required. It prevents floating and provides stability instead of placing you in a posture that requires all your resources be dedicated to maintaining ballance. Good ballance is a byproduct of, not the entire focus of, the move. Structure and ballance are the two things I primarily focus on in all movment. Since I have ballance problems to begin with, any deficiency in my technique really shows up. And getting older and not being able to work like I used to, I depend a lot more on structure than just strength to make things work. Thanks for the insight.

    Dan C
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