Page 1 of 2 12 LastLast
Results 1 to 20 of 36

Thread: Is there application (Bunkai) of the forms....

  1. #1
    Brett is offline
    KenpoTalk
    White Belt
    Join Date
    Jan 2018
    Location
    Tennessee
    Posts
    12
    Thanks
    30
    Thanked 5 Times in 3 Posts

    Default Is there application (Bunkai) of the forms....

    Is there a breakdown of self defense application for the forms? I understand that they are good for: speed, power, balance, etc...
    I was curious if they were originally designed as a living encyclopedia of techniques, and the explanation is out there; or, I’d be interested even if someone has taken the time to do it “unofficially”.
    I’m truly just looking for their value beyond what can be developed more efficiently through other means.
    Your thoughts?

  2. #2
    Brett is offline
    KenpoTalk
    White Belt
    Join Date
    Jan 2018
    Location
    Tennessee
    Posts
    12
    Thanks
    30
    Thanked 5 Times in 3 Posts

    Default Re: Is there application (Bunkai) of the forms....

    In looking at past threads, I think I’ve found my answers. �� (disappointed)

  3. #3
    Join Date
    Feb 2005
    Posts
    1,706
    Thanks
    8
    Thanked 1,159 Times in 657 Posts

    Default Re: Is there application (Bunkai) of the forms....

    You say you've been training for 30 years ... and you ask this question?

    If after thirty years, your take-away is : "speed, power, balance, etc... "

    I"m thinking you should have started looking for a different trainer some decades back.

  4. #4
    Join Date
    Oct 2005
    Location
    San Francisco
    Posts
    2,723
    Thanks
    1,603
    Thanked 3,077 Times in 1,445 Posts

    Default Re: Is there application (Bunkai) of the forms....

    Quote Originally Posted by Brett View Post
    In looking at past threads, I think I’ve found my answers. �� (disappointed)
    what is you found that disappointed you?

    in my experience with kenpo, many of the forms are made of specific self-defense combinations that are first taught individually as part of the standard curriculum of the particular lineage. So when you learn the form, you already understand the application of all parts of it.
    Michael


    de gustibus non disputante est.
    Negative Douche Bag Number One

  5. The Following User Says Thank You to flying crane For This Useful Post:

    Star Dragon (01-01-2018)

  6. #5
    Brett is offline
    KenpoTalk
    White Belt
    Join Date
    Jan 2018
    Location
    Tennessee
    Posts
    12
    Thanks
    30
    Thanked 5 Times in 3 Posts

    Default Re: Is there application (Bunkai) of the forms....

    Whoa, easy there fella... .Before you go insulting a man perhaps you should ask a few questions.... 30 years (Shodan-Judo USJA, Nidan-Trad. Japanese Jujitsu AJA, Brown Belt-BJJ) and yes, that’s all I get from it because none of the arts I’ve practiced focus on forms (and don’t start with the Judo argument). I’m new to Kenpo (which is why I’m listed as a white belt).


    and to the other post:
    Thank you, I didn’t know the self defense techniques were in there. It seemed like many people seemed to suggest that was not the case. I was disappointed because I want a reason that drives me “personally” to learn the forms...
    Anyway, thanks again for taking the time to share with a newbie.
    Last edited by Brett; 01-01-2018 at 06:21 PM.

  7. #6
    Join Date
    Oct 2005
    Location
    San Francisco
    Posts
    2,723
    Thanks
    1,603
    Thanked 3,077 Times in 1,445 Posts

    Default Re: Is there application (Bunkai) of the forms....

    Quote Originally Posted by Brett View Post
    Whoa, easy there fella... .Before you go insulting a man perhaps you should ask a few questions.... 30 years (Shodan-Judo USJA, Nidan-Trad. Japanese Jujitsu AJA, Brown Belt-BJJ) and yes, that’s all I get from it because none of the arts I’ve practiced focus on forms (and don’t start with the Judo argument). I’m new to Kenpo (which is why I’m listed as a white belt).


    and to the other post:
    Thank you, I didn’t know the self defense techniques were in there. It seemed like many people seemed to suggest that was not the case. I was disappointed because I want a reason that drives me “personally” to learn the forms...
    Anyway, thanks again for taking the time to share with a newbie.
    there are a number of lineages that trace their roots back to Ed Parker or William Chow, and some that simply share the term Kenpo through coincidence, with no actual connection, and they do not all do things the same. Some are very similar, others are quite different, so the curriculum is far from being standardized across the board. So it really does depend on who you are training with.
    Michael


    de gustibus non disputante est.
    Negative Douche Bag Number One

  8. The Following User Says Thank You to flying crane For This Useful Post:

    Doc (01-02-2018)

  9. #7
    Join Date
    Feb 2005
    Posts
    1,706
    Thanks
    8
    Thanked 1,159 Times in 657 Posts

    Default Re: Is there application (Bunkai) of the forms....

    Quote Originally Posted by Brett View Post
    Whoa, easy there fella... .Before you go insulting a man perhaps you should ask a few questions.... 30 years (Shodan-Judo USJA, Nidan-Trad. Japanese Jujitsu AJA, Brown Belt-BJJ) and yes, that’s all I get from it because none of the arts I’ve practiced focus on forms (and don’t start with the Judo argument). I’m new to Kenpo (which is why I’m listed as a white belt).
    You profile does not list a Kenpo rank of white belt or any other.
    It lists no experiences, except for 30 years training.
    And, you told us, explicitly, "YOUR" understanding.
    If you don't want to train forms. Don't train forms.
    But don't go trolling forms, and shortcuts.

  10. #8
    Brett is offline
    KenpoTalk
    White Belt
    Join Date
    Jan 2018
    Location
    Tennessee
    Posts
    12
    Thanks
    30
    Thanked 5 Times in 3 Posts

    Default Re: Is there application (Bunkai) of the forms....

    Looking under my name when posted it clearly has a
    ”white belt” ... on the other hand yours clearly shows a “black belt”.
    I’m on a kenpo forum asking a kenpo question.... pretty sure this is where you come when you have a question about this art.
    You being a black belt, and therefore the representation of leadership for your art, you should treat a newbie white belt with less arrogance and disrespect. I would never chastise a white belt if he came to me asking a legitimate question about a throw, choke, etc. I literally joined this Forum today and if you are what Kenpo leadership looks like, then I’m pretty sure I’ll be reconsidering that decision.

  11. #9
    Join Date
    Feb 2005
    Posts
    1,706
    Thanks
    8
    Thanked 1,159 Times in 657 Posts

    Default Re: Is there application (Bunkai) of the forms....

    Quote Originally Posted by Brett View Post
    Looking under my name when posted it clearly has a
    ”white belt” ... on the other hand yours clearly shows a “black belt”.
    I’m on a kenpo forum asking a kenpo question.... pretty sure this is where you come when you have a question about this art.
    You being a black belt, and therefore the representation of leadership for your art, you should treat a newbie white belt with less arrogance and disrespect. I would never chastise a white belt if he came to me asking a legitimate question about a throw, choke, etc. I literally joined this Forum today and if you are what Kenpo leadership looks like, then I’m pretty sure I’ll be reconsidering that decision.
    you are a white belt on the message board ... a rank that has nothing to do with your study of martial arts. Post 11 more times, and you'll be promoted.
    I am not kenpo leadership. I am a knucklehead with a keyboard.
    For the record, I do not believe forms are about speed, balance, power, or whatever you think you were implying by 'etc.' So, much like Master Luke Said, "everything in that sentence is wrong."
    But, that you, with an hour of reading on this board, you found all the answers .... and came to a disappointing conclusions ... well ... I guess you got the answer you wanted.

  12. #10
    Join Date
    Feb 2005
    Location
    SpoVaWA
    Posts
    4,387
    Thanks
    1,765
    Thanked 1,792 Times in 1,309 Posts

    Default Re: Is there application (Bunkai) of the forms....

    I think forms are about all those things. How else are you supposed to develop speed, balance, and power?
    Also Mastering Tsing Tao.

  13. #11
    Star Dragon's Avatar
    Star Dragon is online now
    KenpoTalk
    Adv. Blue Belt
    Join Date
    Aug 2015
    Posts
    409
    Thanks
    496
    Thanked 310 Times in 204 Posts

    Default Re: Is there application (Bunkai) of the forms....

    Hi Brett

    There is no one and only correct bunkai for the forms in any system that I am aware of. This holds true for arts as varied as Taiji, Wing Chun, Penjak Silat, and Okinawan Karate. And Parker Kenpo is no exception.

    To look at this topic a little more in depth, let's consider that in EPAK, there are the four 'exercise forms', and then there are the 'technique forms'. The former (Short 1, Long 1, Short 2, Long 2) were created on Mr. Parker's behalf by the Chinese martial arts master James Wing Woo. It is easy to underestimate these forms due to their apparent simplicity - when, in fact, they alone would provide enough material for a life-time of study.

    Now EPAK is kind of unique in that the "more advanced" forms are collections of well defined self-defence techniques that are also practiced independently. Not that e.g. the Okinawan masters wouldn't have had any specific applications in mind when teaching the forms; training with them revolved around the kata and the application of the pattern of motion that they present. What distinguishes EPAK in this regard, however, is that it was founded more recently and without the veil of secrecy typically covering more traditional arts. So there is little guess work involved in the interpretation of the "technique forms".

    That said, it should be remembered that the EPAK self-defence techniques themselves are just examples of how a certain pattern may be applied to a specific situation. There are countless other uses for each of them. In other words, they are "mini forms" in their own right and, as such, open to bunkai - limited only by your creativity and understanding of martial principles.

    So, digging deeper, we find that, in this regard, there is basically no difference between EPAK and more traditional systems.

  14. The Following User Says Thank You to Star Dragon For This Useful Post:

    Dr. Dave in da house (04-16-2018)

  15. #12
    Join Date
    Feb 2005
    Posts
    1,706
    Thanks
    8
    Thanked 1,159 Times in 657 Posts

    Default Re: Is there application (Bunkai) of the forms....

    Quote Originally Posted by KenpoChanger View Post
    How ... are you supposed to develop speed, balance, and power?
    Basics class.
    Heavy Bag.

  16. #13
    MChong is offline
    KenpoTalk
    Orange Belt
    Join Date
    Sep 2009
    Posts
    105
    Thanks
    6
    Thanked 215 Times in 75 Posts

    Default Re: Is there application (Bunkai) of the forms....

    Quote Originally Posted by Star Dragon View Post
    Hi Brett

    There is no one and only correct bunkai for the forms in any system that I am aware of. This holds true for arts as varied as Taiji, Wing Chun, Penjak Silat, and Okinawan Karate. And Parker Kenpo is no exception.

    To look at this topic a little more in depth, let's consider that in EPAK, there are the four 'exercise forms', and then there are the 'technique forms'. The former (Short 1, Long 1, Short 2, Long 2) were created on Mr. Parker's behalf by the Chinese martial arts master James Wing Woo. It is easy to underestimate these forms due to their apparent simplicity - when, in fact, they alone would provide enough material for a life-time of study.

    Now EPAK is kind of unique in that the "more advanced" forms are collections of well defined self-defence techniques that are also practiced independently. Not that e.g. the Okinawan masters wouldn't have had any specific applications in mind when teaching the forms; training with them revolved around the kata and the application of the pattern of motion that they present. What distinguishes EPAK in this regard, however, is that it was founded more recently and without the veil of secrecy typically covering more traditional arts. So there is little guess work involved in the interpretation of the "technique forms".

    That said, it should be remembered that the EPAK self-defence techniques themselves are just examples of how a certain pattern may be applied to a specific situation. There are countless other uses for each of them. In other words, they are "mini forms" in their own right and, as such, open to bunkai - limited only by your creativity and understanding of martial principles.

    So, digging deeper, we find that, in this regard, there is basically no difference between EPAK and more traditional systems.
    Star Dragon,

    I hope you do not mind if I correct the information you posted about what you call the “exercise forms”. What you call Short 1 and Short 2 were created by EP prior to his meeting Mr. Woo. They were performed together as 1 form. This is supported by film taken prior to their meeting and by my conversations with Mr. Woo. After their meeting Mr. Woo had EP extend the form by adding the last 2 diagonal movements at the end of “Short 2” thus completing the 8 directional rice pattern. At that time there was no Long or Short designations. When I asked him about “Long” 1 he had no idea of what I was talking about. He recalled Long 1 when I showed it to him and said while it was created when he was there he had nothing to do with it. EP created it on his own.

  17. The Following 4 Users Say Thank You to MChong For This Useful Post:

    Doc (01-03-2018),DRANKIN (04-12-2018),KirkS (01-02-2018),Star Dragon (01-02-2018)

  18. #14
    Star Dragon's Avatar
    Star Dragon is online now
    KenpoTalk
    Adv. Blue Belt
    Join Date
    Aug 2015
    Posts
    409
    Thanks
    496
    Thanked 310 Times in 204 Posts

    Default Re: Is there application (Bunkai) of the forms....

    Quote Originally Posted by MChong View Post
    Star Dragon,

    I hope you do not mind if I correct the information you posted about what you call the “exercise forms”. What you call Short 1 and Short 2 were created by EP prior to his meeting Mr. Woo. They were performed together as 1 form. This is supported by film taken prior to their meeting and by my conversations with Mr. Woo. After their meeting Mr. Woo had EP extend the form by adding the last 2 diagonal movements at the end of “Short 2” thus completing the 8 directional rice pattern. At that time there was no Long or Short designations. When I asked him about “Long” 1 he had no idea of what I was talking about. He recalled Long 1 when I showed it to him and said while it was created when he was there he had nothing to do with it. EP created it on his own.
    Interesting information. Thanks.

  19. The Following User Says Thank You to Star Dragon For This Useful Post:

    nelson (01-02-2018)

  20. #15
    Join Date
    Feb 2005
    Location
    SpoVaWA
    Posts
    4,387
    Thanks
    1,765
    Thanked 1,792 Times in 1,309 Posts

    Default Re: Is there application (Bunkai) of the forms....

    Quote Originally Posted by michaeledward View Post
    Basics class.
    Heavy Bag.
    It's a great way to practice basics, when not in class.
    Also Mastering Tsing Tao.

  21. The Following 2 Users Say Thank You to KenpoChanger For This Useful Post:

    DRANKIN (04-12-2018),nelson (01-02-2018)

  22. #16
    Join Date
    Feb 2005
    Posts
    1,706
    Thanks
    8
    Thanked 1,159 Times in 657 Posts

    Default Re: Is there application (Bunkai) of the forms....

    Quote Originally Posted by KenpoChanger View Post
    It's a great way to practice basics, when not in class.
    I believe forms would be unfocused practice of basics and, therefore, less effective than a basics class.
    Of course, you need not be in a basics class, to practice basics.
    Basics class, however, is how to practice speed and balance.

  23. #17
    Join Date
    Feb 2005
    Location
    SpoVaWA
    Posts
    4,387
    Thanks
    1,765
    Thanked 1,792 Times in 1,309 Posts

    Default Re: Is there application (Bunkai) of the forms....

    Quote Originally Posted by michaeledward View Post
    I believe forms would be unfocused practice of basics and, therefore, less effective than a basics class.
    Of course, you need not be in a basics class, to practice basics.
    Basics class, however, is how to practice speed and balance.
    Your forms may be unfocused, but I can focus on anything I want.
    Also Mastering Tsing Tao.

  24. #18
    Join Date
    Feb 2005
    Posts
    1,706
    Thanks
    8
    Thanked 1,159 Times in 657 Posts

    Default Re: Is there application (Bunkai) of the forms....

    Quote Originally Posted by KenpoChanger View Post
    Your forms may be unfocused, but I can focus on anything I want.
    We all remember the adage about facing a man who practices 1000 kicks, 1 time each ... or facing a many who practices 1 kick, 1000 times.

    Focus away.

  25. #19
    Join Date
    Feb 2005
    Location
    SpoVaWA
    Posts
    4,387
    Thanks
    1,765
    Thanked 1,792 Times in 1,309 Posts

    Default Re: Is there application (Bunkai) of the forms....

    Quote Originally Posted by michaeledward View Post
    We all remember the adage about facing a man who practices 1000 kicks, 1 time each ... or facing a many who practices 1 kick, 1000 times.

    Focus away.
    Go practice that kick.
    Also Mastering Tsing Tao.

  26. #20
    Star Dragon's Avatar
    Star Dragon is online now
    KenpoTalk
    Adv. Blue Belt
    Join Date
    Aug 2015
    Posts
    409
    Thanks
    496
    Thanked 310 Times in 204 Posts

    Default Re: Is there application (Bunkai) of the forms....

    Quote Originally Posted by michaeledward View Post
    I believe forms would be unfocused practice of basics and, therefore, less effective than a basics class.
    Of course, you need not be in a basics class, to practice basics.
    Basics class, however, is how to practice speed and balance.
    Coming from a Shotokan background, I would tend to agree, however, here's an observation that makes me reconsider this:

    I was working a drill that included a palm-downward chop to the neck on my BOB. I hadn't practised this or a similar drill for quite awhile, but I noticed that my chop was more powerful than it had ever been before nevertheless. It took me a few moments to realize that I had indeed been practising that kind of chop on a regular basis as part of a Taiji form that I was doing at the most 10 times a day for some time. And the chop is one of just a few explosive movements contained in that form. I was really surprised that it had gotten so much stronger with so little specific training.

    It makes me think that practising a single movements a very limited number of times in a session, but with full focus, may be quite an effective approach. I have actually come across a few Karate and Kung Fu instructors who advocated that kind of training when working on basics.

    So the effectivity of that approach may be part of the reason why the very traditional approach lays such great emphasis on form training.
    Last edited by Star Dragon; 01-02-2018 at 08:35 PM.

Page 1 of 2 12 LastLast

Remove Ads

Sponsored Links

Posting Permissions

  • You may not post new threads
  • You may not post replies
  • You may not post attachments
  • You may not edit your posts
  •  

Thread Information

Users Browsing this Thread

There are currently 1 users browsing this thread. (0 members and 1 guests)

Similar Threads

  1. Fighting Application in Forms and Sets???
    By Kenpolearner in forum Parkers Kenpo (EPAK) - General
    Replies: 43
    Last Post: 03-12-2010, 09:18 AM
  2. Bunkai
    By kroh in forum Kenpo General
    Replies: 19
    Last Post: 11-02-2009, 09:58 PM
  3. MT: SKK - Bunkai
    By MT Post Bot in forum Kenpo From Other Boards
    Replies: 0
    Last Post: 04-07-2009, 02:14 PM
  4. MT: SKK Form Bunkai
    By MT Post Bot in forum Kenpo From Other Boards
    Replies: 0
    Last Post: 06-07-2007, 12:41 AM
  5. application of Control
    By MrBunny in forum Kenpo General
    Replies: 10
    Last Post: 03-13-2006, 12:02 PM