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Thread: History of Form 7

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    Default History of Form 7

    Does anybody know when our Form 7 was created?

    I read that this was in the 80's, replacing a previous form by the same designation which, however, was a double knife form.

    But I also heard that it was introduced in the late 70's.

    Which is correct? I would like to know the time of its introduction as precisely as possible.

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    Default Re: History of Form 7

    Quote Originally Posted by Star Dragon View Post
    Does anybody know when our Form 7 was created?

    I read that this was in the 80's, replacing a previous form by the same designation which, however, was a double knife form.

    But I also heard that it was introduced in the late 70's.

    Which is correct? I would like to know the time of its introduction as precisely as possible.
    The form was created in the seventies as part of a program to introduce weapons into the Ed Parker Kenpo Karate System for the expressed purpose of competition. The system is not a weapon system. Form Seven was originally supposed to be quite complex and illuminating, but pressure from impatient students yielded the current version. The "Knife or Blade Set existed independently first for the same reasons but lacked any real "flair" for competing. After Mr. Parker improvised Form Seven over what he wanted to actually do, he moved the Blade Set to form 8. Prior to that Mr. Parker never had weapons in any of his systems other than the Staff Set which essentially came from or was derived from Ark Wong.
    "Nothing is more dangerous than the conscientiously ignorant, or the sincerely stupid." - Martin Luther King Jr.

    "Knowledge speaks but wisdom listens." - Ed Parker Sr.

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    Default Re: History of Form 7

    I always thought Long 8 was a great way to skin yourself. There are some simple rules about self-preservation when working with a knife, which sequences in 8 violate liberally. "Minor inside Major" is great, until you start running a risk of cutting your own wrists under pressure of an attackers onset.

    The really sad part is, Mr. Parker was like a cuisinart with a knife. One, or two. His unique way of seeing the world through possibilities of motion didn't get passed on through 8. It's worth looking up any and all footage of him plating with knives, outside the context of teaching 8, to see that -- what he did, and what he taught, were two different animals.
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    Default Re: History of Form 7

    Quote Originally Posted by Dr. Dave in da house View Post
    I always thought Long 8 was a great way to skin yourself.
    As a gluten for punishment, I train 8 with training knives ... but, I occasionally run it with double edged Hibben daggers. It does focus ones mind.

    I have had some folks I generally respect say things like 'Run your forms with knives', not understanding that our system is an empty hand system. Weapon rules are different from Empty Hand rules. (please note - "generally respect", not "completely respect")

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    Default Re: History of Form 7

    Quote Originally Posted by Dr. Dave in da house View Post
    I always thought Long 8 was a great way to skin yourself. There are some simple rules about self-preservation when working with a knife, which sequences in 8 violate liberally. "Minor inside Major" is great, until you start running a risk of cutting your own wrists under pressure of an attackers onset.


    The really sad part is, Mr. Parker was like a cuisinart with a knife. One, or two. His unique way of seeing the world through possibilities of motion didn't get passed on through 8. It's worth looking up any and all footage of him plating with knives, outside the context of teaching 8, to see that -- what he did, and what he taught, were two different animals.
    All of the things in the system in many ways fall under that category that separates what Mr. Parker did personally, from what he taught for the system. Knife Set was no different than the original Club Set which ultimately became Form 7 with Knife Set becoming 8. Mr. Parker had knowledge and wisdom flowing out of his pockets that didn't "fit" the philosophy of Ed Parker's Kenpo Karate which was created and designed for a specific purpose grounded in proliferation and mass appeal.

    There are things he taught me relating to edged weapons that do not appear in the set, which as you said, violates a whole slew of rules. Why? Like Club Set/Form 7 it was created for exhibition/competition and not for practical application and function because students demanded it. He could have taught them much more, but they were more interested in winning a trophy in the big tournament.

    Club Set was to be a multiple set approach with variations on multiple themes of single versus dual clubs held in various manners. We worked on a great deal of it only to my disappointment he ended up just taking existing techniques and adding "sticks" to "flesh" them out. But the system was designed to give its customers what they wanted over what they needed. Keeping students engaged was paramount to retention and retention and proliferation was the business god that permeated and ruled the system, and Mr. Parker knew ultimately there was nothing he could do about it and capitulated to the beast he had created.
    "Nothing is more dangerous than the conscientiously ignorant, or the sincerely stupid." - Martin Luther King Jr.

    "Knowledge speaks but wisdom listens." - Ed Parker Sr.

    "It's much easier to quote, than to know." - Ron Chapél


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    Default Re: History of Form 7

    Research by my associates and myself convinced me that certain aspects have been left out of the official system. Subtleties that were probably too difficult to teach in the chosen commercial format, even though they make the art so much more functional.

    The way it is generally taught today, it's not so much "wrong", rather, it's incomplete.

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    Default Re: History of Form 7

    Quote Originally Posted by Star Dragon View Post
    Research by my associates and myself convinced me that certain aspects have been left out of the official system. Subtleties that were probably too difficult to teach in the chosen commercial format, even though they make the art so much more functional.

    The way it is generally taught today, it's not so much "wrong", rather, it's incomplete.
    Mr. Parker once described it to me as "A good start." But the biggest factor is "who" teaches it, and where they received their training. The vast majority of teachers have no experience in other arts, thus no real frame of reference beyond Kenpo Karate's lack of physical basics and teachers who learned the same way to guide them. In my opinion the best practitioners of this conceptual art are those who came to it much later after having studied more viable traditional arts that allows them to put much of the information in context. Incomplete? Yeah, I'd say that is a good way to put it. It is as incomplete as the Cliff Notes are for the book Gone With The Wind - and that might still be a bit of a stretch.
    "Nothing is more dangerous than the conscientiously ignorant, or the sincerely stupid." - Martin Luther King Jr.

    "Knowledge speaks but wisdom listens." - Ed Parker Sr.

    "It's much easier to quote, than to know." - Ron Chapél


    www.MSUACF.com

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    Default Re: History of Form 7

    Quote Originally Posted by Doc View Post
    Mr. Parker once described it to me as "A good start." But the biggest factor is "who" teaches it, and where they received their training. The vast majority of teachers have no experience in other arts, thus no real frame of reference beyond Kenpo Karate's lack of physical basics and teachers who learned the same way to guide them. In my opinion the best practitioners of this conceptual art are those who came to it much later after having studied more viable traditional arts that allows them to put much of the information in context. Incomplete? Yeah, I'd say that is a good way to put it. It is as incomplete as the Cliff Notes are for the book Gone With The Wind - and that might still be a bit of a stretch.


    That is the reason why - besides my a background in Shotokan Karate and Aikido - I started looking into Taiji.

    It should be noted that Mr. Parker had studied various arts himself and, according to his daughter Darlene, always encouraged his students to do likewise.

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    Default Re: History of Form 7

    Getting back on topic, maybe there is something of value to be found in Form 7 and the rather elusive Form 8 as well, after all?

    Some believe that it's pretty instructive to do Kenpo techniques holding staffs in your hands.

    Of course, depending on the weapon used, there are certain differences in adequate motion to consider - which especially Form 8 seems to fall short of.

    However, is Kenpo necessarily an "empty hands only" kind of system? Many martial arts use essentially the same movements in unarmed as well as armed applications - to name just a few, this includes Karate and Okinawan Kobudo respectively, certain styles of Ju-jitsu, Aikido, and - perhaps most notably - the Filipino arts.

    Talking about the latter, I have heard it said that Mr. Parker's use of the knife was more "penetrating" than what is generally seen in the Filipino arts though.

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    Default Re: History of Form 7

    Quote Originally Posted by Star Dragon View Post
    Getting back on topic, maybe there is something of value to be found in Form 7 and the rather elusive Form 8 as well, after all?

    Some believe that it's pretty instructive to do Kenpo techniques holding staffs in your hands.

    Of course, depending on the weapon used, there are certain differences in adequate motion to consider - which especially Form 8 seems to fall short of.

    However, is Kenpo necessarily an "empty hands only" kind of system? Many martial arts use essentially the same movements in unarmed as well as armed applications - to name just a few, this includes Karate and Okinawan Kobudo respectively, certain styles of Ju-jitsu, Aikido, and - perhaps most notably - the Filipino arts.

    Talking about the latter, I have heard it said that Mr. Parker's use of the knife was more "penetrating" than what is generally seen in the Filipino arts though.
    From my experience, other systems utilize the same principles with weapons, as are used with empty hands. There can be some crossover/equivalent technique with a weapon that correlated with a common concept found in an empty hand technique. But that is not the same thing as doing an empty hand technique with a weapon in the hand. For example, in our staff methods in Tibetan White Crane, we have saat guan, or staff chopping, conceptually it correlates to our khaap choi punch, which is a downward punch. But saat guan is not a khaap choi. They simply are conceptually the same.

    of course one could hold a knife of some kind to magnify the effects of various punches. But personally I do not equate that with actual weapons methods, at least as they are found in our system and any Kung fu system that i am
    familiar with.

    ones mileage may vary.
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    Default Re: History of Form 7

    Quote Originally Posted by flying crane View Post
    From my experience, other systems utilize the same principles with weapons, as are used with empty hands. There can be some crossover/equivalent technique with a weapon that correlated with a common concept found in an empty hand technique. But that is not the same thing as doing an empty hand technique with a weapon in the hand. For example, in our staff methods in Tibetan White Crane, we have saat guan, or staff chopping, conceptually it correlates to our khaap choi punch, which is a downward punch. But saat guan is not a khaap choi. They simply are conceptually the same.

    of course one could hold a knife of some kind to magnify the effects of various punches. But personally I do not equate that with actual weapons methods, at least as they are found in our system and any Kung fu system that i am
    familiar with.

    ones mileage may vary.
    I agree. I think when many people hear that "the empty hands" translate to the "weapons" that if you just put a weapon in your hand and you are good at the empty hand portion of your art, you are somehow magically competent with the weapon.

    I agree that if you take some basic kenpo strikes and put a knife in your hand that you can get some basic proficiency in its usage. But, to get to the higher levels or any kind of mastery of the weapon it takes more.

    That being said, I think that systems that incorporated both empty hand and weapons usage have their link in how to use the body as a whole. With the staff, for example, it is very hard to use "arms only" in many transitions and strikes. By studying the staff, you can start to understand how the body should be moving as a whole, which then translates into your empty hand usage. Again, it does not mean that if you pick up a staff you are suddenly competent in its usage mimicking the motions of your empty hand techniques.

    "For he is God's servant to do you good. But if you do wrong, be afraid, for he does not bear the sword for nothing. He is God's servant, an agent of wrath to bring punishment on the wrongdoer."

    Romans 13:4

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    Default Re: History of Form 7

    Quote Originally Posted by flying crane View Post
    From my experience, other systems utilize the same principles with weapons, as are used with empty hands.
    It makes sense that this would work both ways, essentially.

    There can be some crossover/equivalent technique with a weapon that correlated with a common concept found in an empty hand technique.
    It seems to me that Mr. Parker wished to apply the concepts and principles of his art to weapons as well.

    But that is not the same thing as doing an empty hand technique with a weapon in the hand. For example, in our staff methods in Tibetan White Crane, we have saat guan, or staff chopping, conceptually it correlates to our khaap choi punch, which is a downward punch. But saat guan is not a khaap choi. They simply are conceptually the same.

    of course one could hold a knife of some kind to magnify the effects of various punches. But personally I do not equate that with actual weapons methods, at least as they are found in our system and any Kung fu system that i am
    familiar with.

    ones mileage may vary.
    Fair enough. For one thing, the properties of various weapons will naturally lead to variations in movement.

    BTW, besides incorporating the knife and the staff, Mr. Parker even did a book on the nunchaku, using it with Kenpo principles.

    All of that may have been a work in progress, however.

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    Default Re: History of Form 7

    Quote Originally Posted by punisher73 View Post
    I agree. I think when many people hear that "the empty hands" translate to the "weapons" that if you just put a weapon in your hand and you are good at the empty hand portion of your art, you are somehow magically competent with the weapon.

    I agree that if you take some basic kenpo strikes and put a knife in your hand that you can get some basic proficiency in its usage. But, to get to the higher levels or any kind of mastery of the weapon it takes more.
    So it's good for starters, anyway. Working from there, perhaps Kenpo's weapon methods could be advanced to those higher levels though? :

    That being said, I think that systems that incorporated both empty hand and weapons usage have their link in how to use the body as a whole. With the staff, for example, it is very hard to use "arms only" in many transitions and strikes. By studying the staff, you can start to understand how the body should be moving as a whole, which then translates into your empty hand usage. Again, it does not mean that if you pick up a staff you are suddenly competent in its usage mimicking the motions of your empty hand techniques.

    Yes! Back in my Aikido days, it was explained to me that the reason for studying the art's weapons techniques actually lies in this being conducive to the kind of whole body movement required by the empty-handed techniques as well.

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    Default Re: History of Form 7

    Quote Originally Posted by Star Dragon View Post
    ...[snip!] Talking about the latter, I have heard it said that Mr. Parker's use of the knife was more "penetrating" than what is generally seen in the Filipino arts though.
    I'd characterize it as more brilliantly evil, than penetrating. He was great at "bowstringing" tendons, arteries, veins, muscles needed for moving in or away (depending on if he wanted to let you go yet), and so on. If I had to characterize my own experience with him, it was a sleight-of-hand effect, like that of a pick-pocket. He would switch point of engagement quickly enough to draw your attention to where you just got cut, and while you'd be thinking, "well, crap...I would have just gotten my nutsack opened", you feel the training blade draw across the muscles just under the back of your skull. As you instinctively raise your head to try to I.D. the blades location, you feel one hand forcefully check the shoulder you WOULD have use to defend yourself, then feel the damn thing draw across a carotid, and slide down the length of the checked arm, going down the brachial artery, pausing briefly at the elbow to zip the ligaments of forearm connectors, then trace down the inside of the wrist. So you decide to step away, but he's already released his free checking hand, having felt you initiate a retreat, hooked a foot behind your heel, and dropped the blade in a quick, wide arc that started at the femoral artery on the inside of your goin-nowhere leg, then drawn up to the same side kidney, where you feel a slight push (to indicate a passing stab).

    You pick your leg physically up, to get over the hurdle of his check, and while your attention is there, you feel a couple more traces along really bad places. You step away from him with that lifted leg, but before it even starts to drop back towards the floor, you feel that violin bow tickle your achilles tendon, and the hamstring tendons behind the knee. You put your foot down, because you have to, but you understand...there'd be no viable structure left in it to hold you up. Time elapsed? Maybe a second. Maybe. He was great at changing the subject. In FMA, if you stab with the right hand, you're probably going get get cut somewhere along the right upper extremity. He'd just pin-check it, and open the belly along a Cesarean line, then just the knife upward like Muad'dib on Sting...meanwhile you're still trying to free that right from the pin, which he's also pressuring to off balance you.

    I have a bad habit of laughing when I'm getting my ass handed to me, and you would think, from the other room, I was being tickled. Fast, and dominant. Absolute ownership of his movement opportunities, and--dammit--yours.

    Rich Hale has written... here, I think?...about Mr. Parker getting his new felt-edged chalk trainers. Puts on the blue chalk, and tells him to have at. They "spar" for a moment or so, and Mr. Parker stops him to ask, "So, how do you think you did?" Rich feels pretty good about his progress, til he gets a look at his own gi. Covered in blue trails.

    I asked him once for "the simplest guidelines for knife", as I was teaching guys who were in the military, and they never have a lot of time. He said, "keep your hands out half-way, and never pass something without cutting it." It violated much of the FMA wisdom I'd learned from some weathered old dogs, but it makes a mad difference, ONCE you get the "change the subject" notion down. Guy comes at you with his right, instead of falling back on defanging the snake, check it off and follow the path of a 2-finger inward slice, and cut his eye. Then, on the way out, drop the blade toward the collarbone to take the carotid, then trace it out along the brachial, then chip it under a bit of his skin, and flay the length of the arm on the way out. Takes the same amount of time in speed, as one of those "quick-draw" inward palm-heels. All while making that "pkk!" noise.
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    Default Re: History of Form 7

    I know opinions vary as to some of his claims, but is anyone familiar with Mike Pick's knife work? Does it reflect what SGM Parker was trying to communicate with the knife?
    "For he is God's servant to do you good. But if you do wrong, be afraid, for he does not bear the sword for nothing. He is God's servant, an agent of wrath to bring punishment on the wrongdoer."

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    Default Re: History of Form 7

    Quote Originally Posted by punisher73 View Post
    I know opinions vary as to some of his claims, but is anyone familiar with Mike Pick's knife work? Does it reflect what SGM Parker was trying to communicate with the knife?
    "Nothing is more dangerous than the conscientiously ignorant, or the sincerely stupid." - Martin Luther King Jr.

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    Default Re: History of Form 7

    Quote Originally Posted by Doc View Post
    That is a funny looking lathe, but seriously, I took a class, and you basically hold the knife out, stiff, and let the guy machine himself. Not what I was taught, but I see some sense, in it.
    Also Mastering Tsing Tao.

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    Default Re: History of Form 7

    Quote Originally Posted by Star Dragon View Post
    Yes! Back in my Aikido days, it was explained to me that the reason for studying the art's weapons techniques actually lies in this being conducive to the kind of whole body movement required by the empty-handed techniques as well.
    in my opinion that is one of the best reasons to continue training the traditional weapons today, meaning things like staff, spear, sword, dao (saber). These are not things that one can reasonably expect to carry around and actually use. But if they are realistically weighted, perhaps even a bit on the heavy side, then they are excellent training aids in developing useful strength and in learning to engage the body in you’re technique. In short, it won’t let you cheat. If you rely on the strength of your arms and shoulder then you just get tired very quickly. If you learn to engage the body as a whole, you can keep on going. That’s the only way to get through a long form with a Saber in each hand, each weighing in at about 3 pounds, for example.
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