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    Default Kenpo sticks

    Hello Seniors, I'm working on my BB thesis. I'm trying to find out who introduced SGM Ed Parker to the escrimma sticks and what style they came from. Any information you can give me would be greatly appreciated, thank you in advance.

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    Default Re: Kenpo sticks

    An escrima stick is not my understanding of what a tailored club is for kenpo training, but I am not a senior.
    A good teacher is a master of simplification and an enemy of simplism. ~ Louis A. Berman

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    Default Re: Kenpo sticks

    Thanks for the input, I use the term escrima only to give the sticks a name. We do use rattan sticks in our school. thx

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    Default Re: Kenpo sticks

    I use both "sticks" and "clubs" in my training and with my students. I see them as two similar but different tools with their own unique aspects and approaches. My understanding is that Dan Inosanto influenced a lot of what we think of as kenpo club work before he left to train with Lee, but I wasn't there. Maybe Doc could chime in?


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    Default Re: Kenpo sticks

    In all of our weapons training we start with weapons tailored for ourselves. That way when we pick up any other weapon, we have a point of reference and can immediately know the benefits and limitations of what we are wielding.
    A good teacher is a master of simplification and an enemy of simplism. ~ Louis A. Berman

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    Default Re: Kenpo sticks

    Quote Originally Posted by Kenpo Guy View Post
    Hello Seniors, I'm working on my BB thesis. I'm trying to find out who introduced SGM Ed Parker to the Escrimma sticks and what style they came from. Any information you can give me would be greatly appreciated, thank you in advance.
    While Mr. Parker's student Dan Inosanto was already adept at the Filipino Arts when he came out of Ark Wong's School, Mr. Parker did not employ their base principles in his "kenpo Stick" work. His self defense vehicle built around "motion concepts" utilized "Storm" or club techniques. But "storms' are not the lightweight rattan sticks of Escrima or Kali, but an elongated bludgeon with significant heft and weight to be a viable single stroke striking weapon, that requires a physical commitment to deploy.

    At the time, other than the Staff, there were no specific weapons in his Kenpo. While Mr. Parker worked diligently on some very specific uses of the lightweight "stick," and even straight police baton, students pressured him to complete his work so it could be used in the weapons divisions in local tournaments in general, and the IKC in particular. This impatience caused Mr. Parker to set aside what he was doing, and instead he implemented a set (Club Set later designated Form 7), that was comprised primarily of already established techniques modified with a lightweight stick in each hand. This form does not have any relationship to any of the stick arts, and is essentially only a performance vehicle in reality. Both Form 7 and 8 were designed as performance vehicles, as Mr. Parker always said essentially His Kenpo is an empty handed art, that allows the adaptability of any object to its empty hand principles. - Dr. Chapél
    "Nothing is more dangerous than the conscientiously ignorant, or the sincerely stupid." - Martin Luther King Jr.

    "Knowledge speaks but wisdom listens." - Ed Parker Sr.

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    Default Re: Kenpo sticks

    Thank you Doc for your rapid response. So from what i understand you are saying that Dan Inosanto was the one that introduced or showed SGM Parker the escrima, and he applied his Kenpo concepts and theories to it.

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    Default Re: Kenpo sticks

    Quote Originally Posted by kenpo guy View Post
    thank you doc for your rapid response. So from what i understand you are saying that dan inosanto was the one that introduced or showed sgm parker the escrima, and he applied his kenpo concepts and theories to it.
    re-read.
    "Nothing is more dangerous than the conscientiously ignorant, or the sincerely stupid." - Martin Luther King Jr.

    "Knowledge speaks but wisdom listens." - Ed Parker Sr.

    "It's much easier to quote, than to know." - Ron Chapél


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    Default Re: Kenpo sticks

    I guess my cocobolo hanbo could qualify as a club, it's pretty heavy and if I hit somebody with it, they probably won't need hitting again.

    I wonder if Sijo Emperado had any influence (stickwise) on Mr. Parker?
    "To be, rather than to seem"

    "Fix your rear foot ... What the hell is wrong with you?"

    "...I already watched the videos, and quite frankly, they're bullsh*t."

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    Default Re: Kenpo sticks

    I apologize for not geting what you are saying . I'm not quite shure the significance of mentioning Dan Inosanto if he had no influance on Mr Parker. Had he already incoparated some sort of stick or club ?.And if so do you know where that influance came from?

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    Default Re: Kenpo sticks

    thanks MarkC . I was wondering if it might have some Hawiian influance behind it.

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    Default Re: Kenpo sticks

    Quote Originally Posted by Kenpo Guy View Post
    I apologize for not geting what you are saying . I'm not quite shure the significance of mentioning Dan Inosanto if he had no influance on Mr Parker. Had he already incoparated some sort of stick or club ?.And if so do you know where that influance came from?
    I think, and I could be wrong so feel free to correct me Doc, but I think he was saying that when Inosanto came around he showed Master Parker his Filipino style, but Parker didn't adopt or incorporate it into his kenpo. Instead, his position was that kenpo was an empty hand art that taught principles and approaches that could be applied to weapons, but didn't teach weapons in and of themselves. Later, pressure from students to create weapons forms they could compete with in weapons divisions at tournaments led to the creation of forms 7 and 8. But kenpo, at least in the widely practiced commercial model, doesn't "teach" or contain weapons techniques. So the answer to "where did these weapons practices come from" probably doesn't have to do with Parker at all, but rather someone further down in your lineage.


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    Default Re: Kenpo sticks

    thank Rob, perhaps I need to Talk to Mr Speakman. We have both storm [club] and Lance [knives] techniques in 5.0 as part of our curriculum. We also have knife set 1 & 2 as well as stick set 1 & 2 and form 7 & 8, which are down the road aways

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    Default Re: Kenpo sticks

    From what I know of kenpo in general, I would guess that the storm and lance techniques are probably descended from the EPAK system, and are still empty hand defenses against weapon attacks, not specific techniques designed to teach you how to use the weapon itself. Certainly those lessons can be derived from those techniques, and many of us do that, but they existed in their original form as empty hand teaching tools.

    I would further surmise that the knife sets are probably something that Mr. Speakman added to his own interpretation of the kenpo model based on his training and knowledge, no doubt influenced by his time with Master Parker. He may have picked them up somewhere, or created them himself. And I have no doubt they are quite effective teaching tools. But as far as I know they do not exist in any system I have seen attributed directly to Parker himself.

    Forms 7 and 8 were created by Master Parker but, at least according to Doc, they were less specifically teaching tools than they were simply demonstration material. Again, an instructor or student can probably extrapolate some value from that material, but it was not originally intended for that purpose. Or at least not primarily for that purpose.

    Do talk to Mr. Speakman if that is an option for you. Certainly don't take my word for it. This is just my understanding, and I could be wrong. But you're asking in the right place. There're plenty of more knowledgeable people than me around here.


    -Rob
    "All the time you're arguing over, is this kenpo, is that kenpo, you could be training!"

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    Default Re: Kenpo sticks

    Quote Originally Posted by Thesemindz View Post
    From what I know of kenpo in general, I would guess that the storm and lance techniques are probably descended from the EPAK system, and are still empty hand defenses against weapon attacks, not specific techniques designed to teach you how to use the weapon itself. Certainly those lessons can be derived from those techniques, and many of us do that, but they existed in their original form as empty hand teaching tools.

    I would further surmise that the knife sets are probably something that Mr. Speakman added to his own interpretation of the kenpo model based on his training and knowledge, no doubt influenced by his time with Master Parker. He may have picked them up somewhere, or created them himself. And I have no doubt they are quite effective teaching tools. But as far as I know they do not exist in any system I have seen attributed directly to Parker himself.

    Forms 7 and 8 were created by Master Parker but, at least according to Doc, they were less specifically teaching tools than they were simply demonstration material. Again, an instructor or student can probably extrapolate some value from that material, but it was not originally intended for that purpose. Or at least not primarily for that purpose.

    Do talk to Mr. Speakman if that is an option for you. Certainly don't take my word for it. This is just my understanding, and I could be wrong. But you're asking in the right place. There're plenty of more knowledgeable people than me around here.


    -Rob
    "Nothing is more dangerous than the conscientiously ignorant, or the sincerely stupid." - Martin Luther King Jr.

    "Knowledge speaks but wisdom listens." - Ed Parker Sr.

    "It's much easier to quote, than to know." - Ron Chapél


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    Default Re: Kenpo sticks

    Quote Originally Posted by Thesemindz View Post
    I think, and I could be wrong so feel free to correct me Doc, but I think he was saying that when Inosanto came around he showed Master Parker his Filipino style, but Parker didn't adopt or incorporate it into his kenpo. Instead, his position was that kenpo was an empty hand art that taught principles and approaches that could be applied to weapons, but didn't teach weapons in and of themselves. Later, pressure from students to create weapons forms they could compete with in weapons divisions at tournaments led to the creation of forms 7 and 8. But kenpo, at least in the widely practiced commercial model, doesn't "teach" or contain weapons techniques. So the answer to "where did these weapons practices come from" probably doesn't have to do with Parker at all, but rather someone further down in your lineage.


    -Rob
    Many ASSUME because Danny taught Bruce, that Mr. Parker learned it from him as well. Mr. Parker actually did not like the Escrima principles, choosing to stick with the Chinese interpretations derived from empty hand executions. However, once again, he felt YOU should be the weapon, and that by extension anything you pick up will be an extension of you. The mere fact he took a "self-defense" perspective should be a clue. Walking around with a couple of "sticks" in your back pocket, or a couple of blades in each hand didn't sound like self-defense to Mr. Parker, nor were you going to have them if/when attacked, and even if you did you might not "get them out." They were created only for self expression in competition, and/or allowed students to explore principles on their own. Perhaps in another culture where everyone carries a macheté? MIGHT make sense, but not in the American Culture Mr. Parker surmised. And while he published a lot of material, there is nothing on "sticks" or "knives." While some may make claim Kenpo is a knife art, that is their interpretation, which is perfectly valid, even though it was not Mr. Parker's position. I was taught all of the knife principles in passing. Never gave them a second thought, cause if I actually used them, I'd get locked up. Now if you want to take out a sentry quietly, than .......
    "Nothing is more dangerous than the conscientiously ignorant, or the sincerely stupid." - Martin Luther King Jr.

    "Knowledge speaks but wisdom listens." - Ed Parker Sr.

    "It's much easier to quote, than to know." - Ron Chapél


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    Default Re: Kenpo sticks

    Quote Originally Posted by Thesemindz View Post
    From what I know of kenpo in general, I would guess that the storm and lance techniques are probably descended from the EPAK system, and are still empty hand defenses against weapon attacks, not specific techniques designed to teach you how to use the weapon itself. Certainly those lessons can be derived from those techniques, and many of us do that, but they existed in their original form as empty hand teaching tools.

    I would further surmise that the knife sets are probably something that Mr. Speakman added to his own interpretation of the kenpo model based on his training and knowledge, no doubt influenced by his time with Master Parker. He may have picked them up somewhere, or created them himself. And I have no doubt they are quite effective teaching tools. But as far as I know they do not exist in any system I have seen attributed directly to Parker himself.

    Forms 7 and 8 were created by Master Parker but, at least according to Doc, they were less specifically teaching tools than they were simply demonstration material. Again, an instructor or student can probably extrapolate some value from that material, but it was not originally intended for that purpose. Or at least not primarily for that purpose.

    Do talk to Mr. Speakman if that is an option for you. Certainly don't take my word for it. This is just my understanding, and I could be wrong. But you're asking in the right place. There're plenty of more knowledgeable people than me around here.


    -Rob
    Jeff is a good source because Mr. Parker specifically spent time with Jeff on both weapons because he needed them for the "movies." Movies, right? And he made good use of both in his films showing some Kenpo Principles. I would say Mr. Parker spent more time with him than anyone on those weapons.
    "Nothing is more dangerous than the conscientiously ignorant, or the sincerely stupid." - Martin Luther King Jr.

    "Knowledge speaks but wisdom listens." - Ed Parker Sr.

    "It's much easier to quote, than to know." - Ron Chapél


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    Default Re: Kenpo sticks

    Quote Originally Posted by Kenpo Guy View Post
    I apologize for not geting what you are saying . I'm not quite shure the significance of mentioning Dan Inosanto if he had no influance on Mr Parker. Had he already incoparated some sort of stick or club ?.And if so do you know where that influance came from?
    Never apologize for not understanding something. Is it never necessary. As an educator it is my job to make you "think."
    "Nothing is more dangerous than the conscientiously ignorant, or the sincerely stupid." - Martin Luther King Jr.

    "Knowledge speaks but wisdom listens." - Ed Parker Sr.

    "It's much easier to quote, than to know." - Ron Chapél


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    Default Re: Kenpo sticks

    I'm interested in something else Doc. You mention that Staff was practiced in kenpo at that time. Can you tell us more about that? I learned a staff set that I've seen some version of in several Parker influenced kenpo styles, but what role did it play in the training at the time? And what other Staff practices were a part of kenpo? Other than that set, I've never really heard much about the role the staff played in kenpo. I don't even know where that set came from.


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    Default Re: Kenpo sticks

    Quote Originally Posted by Thesemindz View Post
    I'm interested in something else Doc. You mention that Staff was practiced in kenpo at that time. Can you tell us more about that? I learned a staff set that I've seen some version of in several Parker influenced kenpo styles, but what role did it play in the training at the time? And what other Staff practices were a part of kenpo? Other than that set, I've never really heard much about the role the staff played in kenpo. I don't even know where that set came from.


    -Rob
    It essentially played no part other than to introduce it into a system. It originates under Ark Wong, Mr. Parker modified it, and Chuck Sullivan essentially finalized and originally performed it for the early sixties film, (not video) series of techniques Mr. Parker made. It was emphasized briefly under "Chinese Kenpo," than later dropped, (along with Tiger and Crane), only to resurface again in the commercial system. But, few actually knew it, and because it was not a "sexy" weapon, it did not fare well in competition and all but disappeared. The bulk of it was totally impractical, and fell well outside the boundaries of an "empty hand" self defense focused system. Some will tell you it could be a broom, as a stretch but truth is a broom has only one end and is much shorter. Those same people will tell you "Kenpo Sticks" are a broom broken in half in a pinch. Interesting because it is in fact a movie scenario, not real life.
    "Nothing is more dangerous than the conscientiously ignorant, or the sincerely stupid." - Martin Luther King Jr.

    "Knowledge speaks but wisdom listens." - Ed Parker Sr.

    "It's much easier to quote, than to know." - Ron Chapél


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