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Thread: Weapons ARE or ARE NOT originally part of Kenpo??

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    Thumbs up Re: Weapons ARE or ARE NOT originally part of Kenpo??

    Many good thoughts and responses to this thread! As one who actually studied with Ed Parker for many years, this topic came up more than once. From a system perspective, Mr. Parker outlined the 4 methods of attack; 1) Unarmed vs Unarmed, 2) Unarmed vs Armed, 3) Armed vs Unarmed, & Armed vs Armed. You are always the first variable and your opponent is the second.

    The majority of our early training is in the first two categories. 1) Unarmed vs Unarmed i.e. = Grabs & Tackles, Pushes, Punches, Kicks, Hugs & Holds, Locks & Chokes, or multiple unarmed attacks AND 2) Unarmed vs Armed i.e. = Club, Knife & Gun.

    Ed Parker was well aware of not only these different possibilities, but also aware of establishing a base set of technique examples to be used as a point of reference to start your awareness and understanding of said variables. He also emphasized CONTINUED study of these areas as you need to dedicate a considerable amount of time to develop true skill not just Sequential Awareness.

    As you progress to advanced levels in the Art, logically Mr. Parker realized that we MUST also train "reverse rolls" whereby WE may be Armed against an Unarmed or Armed opponent and should expand our knowledge & skill base to include these possibilities in our repertoire to be complete Kenpoists. In these last two categories (or all of them for that matter) it must be understood that none of the training is for unethical purposes. The intent is NOT to ATTACK another {UN Armed OR Armed}. Self Defense Is ALWAYS just that "SELF DEFENSE". The use of weapons (any- club knife gun ICBM etc.) have many considerations... discouraging factors, understanding issues (the better you know a weapon the better you understand and can defend against it) and knowledge expansion. Implements are all around us in any environment and to have awareness and knowledge is never a bad idea, NOW what one does with that knowledge IS the issue. Illegitimate, unprovoked or unethical use will obviously have moral and legal consequences. Be wise and always keep an open mind for positive applications to upgrade and expand the Art.

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    Default Re: Weapons ARE or ARE NOT originally part of Kenpo??

    Quote Originally Posted by TheGoldenOne View Post
    Many good thoughts and responses to this thread! As one who actually studied with Ed Parker for many years, this topic came up more than once. From a system perspective, Mr. Parker outlined the 4 methods of attack; 1) Unarmed vs Unarmed, 2) Unarmed vs Armed, 3) Armed vs Unarmed, & Armed vs Armed. You are always the first variable and your opponent is the second.

    The majority of our early training is in the first two categories. 1) Unarmed vs Unarmed i.e. = Grabs & Tackles, Pushes, Punches, Kicks, Hugs & Holds, Locks & Chokes, or multiple unarmed attacks AND 2) Unarmed vs Armed i.e. = Club, Knife & Gun.

    Ed Parker was well aware of not only these different possibilities, but also aware of establishing a base set of technique examples to be used as a point of reference to start your awareness and understanding of said variables. He also emphasized CONTINUED study of these areas as you need to dedicate a considerable amount of time to develop true skill not just Sequential Awareness.

    As you progress to advanced levels in the Art, logically Mr. Parker realized that we MUST also train "reverse rolls" whereby WE may be Armed against an Unarmed or Armed opponent and should expand our knowledge & skill base to include these possibilities in our repertoire to be complete Kenpoists. In these last two categories (or all of them for that matter) it must be understood that none of the training is for unethical purposes. The intent is NOT to ATTACK another {UN Armed OR Armed}. Self Defense Is ALWAYS just that "SELF DEFENSE". The use of weapons (any- club knife gun ICBM etc.) have many considerations... discouraging factors, understanding issues (the better you know a weapon the better you understand and can defend against it) and knowledge expansion. Implements are all around us in any environment and to have awareness and knowledge is never a bad idea, NOW what one does with that knowledge IS the issue. Illegitimate, unprovoked or unethical use will obviously have moral and legal consequences. Be wise and always keep an open mind for positive applications to upgrade and expand the Art.

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    Default Re: Weapons ARE or ARE NOT originally part of Kenpo??

    Quote Originally Posted by TheGoldenOne View Post
    Many good thoughts and responses to this thread! As one who actually studied with Ed Parker for many years, this topic came up more than once. From a system perspective, Mr. Parker outlined the 4 methods of attack; 1) Unarmed vs Unarmed, 2) Unarmed vs Armed, 3) Armed vs Unarmed, & Armed vs Armed. You are always the first variable and your opponent is the second.

    The majority of our early training is in the first two categories. 1) Unarmed vs Unarmed i.e. = Grabs & Tackles, Pushes, Punches, Kicks, Hugs & Holds, Locks & Chokes, or multiple unarmed attacks AND 2) Unarmed vs Armed i.e. = Club, Knife & Gun.

    Ed Parker was well aware of not only these different possibilities, but also aware of establishing a base set of technique examples to be used as a point of reference to start your awareness and understanding of said variables. He also emphasized CONTINUED study of these areas as you need to dedicate a considerable amount of time to develop true skill not just Sequential Awareness.

    As you progress to advanced levels in the Art, logically Mr. Parker realized that we MUST also train "reverse rolls" whereby WE may be Armed against an Unarmed or Armed opponent and should expand our knowledge & skill base to include these possibilities in our repertoire to be complete Kenpoists. In these last two categories (or all of them for that matter) it must be understood that none of the training is for unethical purposes. The intent is NOT to ATTACK another {UN Armed OR Armed}. Self Defense Is ALWAYS just that "SELF DEFENSE". The use of weapons (any- club knife gun ICBM etc.) have many considerations... discouraging factors, understanding issues (the better you know a weapon the better you understand and can defend against it) and knowledge expansion. Implements are all around us in any environment and to have awareness and knowledge is never a bad idea, NOW what one does with that knowledge IS the issue. Illegitimate, unprovoked or unethical use will obviously have moral and legal consequences. Be wise and always keep an open mind for positive applications to upgrade and expand the Art.

    GD7

    Remember the disagreement that Doc had with my manz KenpoChanger? I laughingly brought that up to a few colleagues juniors and Kenpo seniors round the way, and got a swift serious response. They were 100% to a man absolutely convinced that Kenpo is what GD7 just said it was....SELF DEFENSE ALWAYS.

    Caught a little by surprise by the seriousness and bluntness of their response,I responded with a simple query and supposition: what if you're rescuing somebody in duress? What if you're called upon to do your civic duty by helping a stranger or LEO or loved one etc etc etc? Would not such a situation be morally ethically and legally correct and perhaps mandated by our martial moral code?

    Silence. And then..."yeah, but that's not justifying attacking others. It's PROTECTING others. Which is not only self-defense it's the defense of others." they collectively responded and assented.

    "That's not self-defense," I bluntly disagreed in my lovely ATACX GYM way."That's a moral thing to do. Ethical thing to do. I think it's right and even obliquely called upon by any and all martial codes from whatever location, from where it was first crafted in Africa to the newest hybrid codes of conduct from the modern day cutting edge warriors in the military LEO etc etc. But when you see that lady being assaulted and you drop hammers on that bad guy assaulting her? It's RIGHT. It's GOOD. It's HEROIC. It's in the Martial Code which imo calls upon heroism in our character as martial artists. But it's NOT SELF-DEFENSE. Your SELF wasn't being attacked. You witnessed something which was foul and was happening right now,and we all know that if it jumps off in the hood...the police and the ER aren't gonna be arriving on time IF they deign to respond to us at all." Chorus of laughter and "You damn rights" to that statement. "So yeah probably all of us would have or will be--as martial artists--called upon to do something for our fellow human being and oftentimes as we're growing up we may have to shield a friend of ours in elementary school or middle school or high school or whatever who's kept our names in their mouths and probably found themselves in hot water and got to singing our name like DESTINY'S CHILD. You know...we ask them why is that when you're in deep doo-doo you're trying to 'SAY MY NAME SAY MY NAME' like Destiny's Child song. But that's not self-defense. A loved one or friend or other person is in duress...but our SELF isn't under attack.Therefore it's LITERALLY NOT 'self-defense'. That's engaging the other dynamics of being a quality person and a quality martial artist."

    But I also agree with Doc visavis the importance of tailoring our delivery for the prospective public that we never bilaterally interact with but whom we impact by presenting our material to the general public. I completely and totally wholeheartedly agree that we must censor ourselves and properly present our info with these considerations in mind. I censor my YT videos heavily for that reason. You note that I won't use even a blunt knife in my videos,I conspicuously use wooden knives in my UT videos. You rarely see me do anything at speed on my UT videos because many of the techs I show can do some serious damage even at half speed...if you're properly trained to defend and comprehend and put these techs in their proper moral and physical context.

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    Default Re: Weapons ARE or ARE NOT originally part of Kenpo??

    Getting back to the OP...I think that Kenpo should and does train the ultimate weapon: our minds/bodies/spirits holistically combined. Guns knives sticks whatever are just tools that were crafted by your minds. Use those tools but don't forget the ultimate weapon is what allows you to use your tools and develope as a quality human being.
    Last edited by ATACX GYM; 01-16-2012 at 07:22 PM.

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    Default Re: Weapons ARE or ARE NOT originally part of Kenpo??

    Quote Originally Posted by ATACX GYM View Post
    Remember the disagreement that Doc had with my manz KenpoChanger? I laughingly brought that up to a few colleagues juniors and Kenpo seniors round the way, and got a swift serious response. They were 100% to a man absolutely convinced that Kenpo is what GD7 just said it was....SELF DEFENSE ALWAYS.

    Caught a little by surprise by the seriousness and bluntness of their response,I responded with a simple query and supposition: what if you're rescuing somebody in duress? What if you're called upon to do your civic duty by helping a stranger or LEO or loved one etc etc etc? Would not such a situation be morally ethically and legally correct and perhaps mandated by our martial moral code?

    Silence. And then..."yeah, but that's not justifying attacking others. It's PROTECTING others. Which is not only self-defense it's the defense of others." they collectively responded and assented.

    "That's not self-defense," I bluntly disagreed in my lovely ATACX GYM way."That's a moral thing to do. Ethical thing to do. I think it's right and even obliquely called upon by any and all martial codes from whatever location, from where it was first crafted in Africa to the newest hybrid codes of conduct from the modern day cutting edge warriors in the military LEO etc etc. But when you see that lady being assaulted and you drop hammers on that bad guy assaulting her? It's RIGHT. It's GOOD. It's HEROIC. It's in the Martial Code which imo calls upon heroism in our character as martial artists. But it's NOT SELF-DEFENSE. Your SELF wasn't being attacked. You witnessed something which was foul and was happening right now,and we all know that if it jumps off in the hood...the police and the ER aren't gonna be arriving on time IF they deign to respond to us at all." Chorus of laughter and "You damn rights" to that statement. "So yeah probably all of us would have or will be--as martial artists--called upon to do something for our fellow human being and oftentimes as we're growing up we may have to shield a friend of ours in elementary school or middle school or high school or whatever who's kept our names in their mouths and probably found themselves in hot water and got to singing our name like DESTINY'S CHILD. You know...we ask them why is that when you're in deep doo-doo you're trying to 'SAY MY NAME SAY MY NAME' like Destiny's Child song. But that's not self-defense. A loved one or friend or other person is in duress...but our SELF isn't under attack.Therefore it's LITERALLY NOT 'self-defense'. That's engaging the other dynamics of being a quality person and a quality martial artist."

    But I also agree with Doc visavis the importance of tailoring our delivery for the prospective public that we never bilaterally interact with but whom we impact by presenting our material to the general public. I completely and totally wholeheartedly agree that we must censor ourselves and properly present our info with these considerations in mind. I censor my YT videos heavily for that reason. You note that I won't use even a blunt knife in my videos,I conspicuously use wooden knives in my UT videos. You rarely see me do anything at speed on my UT videos because many of the techs I show can do some serious damage even at half speed...if you're properly trained to defend and comprehend and put these techs in their proper moral and physical context.
    Well, that's one way to look at it. And I can't say that you are incorrect. But there is another way to look at the situation. As poet John Donne did:

    "No man is an island entire of itself; every man
    is a piece of the continent, a part of the main;
    if a clod be washed away by the sea, Europe
    is the less, as well as if a promontory were, as
    well as a manor of thy friends or of thine
    own were; any man's death diminishes me,
    because I am involved in mankind.
    And therefore never send to know for whom
    the bell tolls; it tolls for thee."


    My own thoughts are these:
    Yes, we are our brothers' keepers, as it were. Or as I once had the discussion in a classroom:
    If my neighbor lives in the house on the north end of the block, and I live in the house 10 doors down at the south end of the block, it may be easy for me to dismiss him. Therefore, if a murderer comes in the night and kills my neighbor in the first house, I may not take notice. If, however, the murder comes again the second night and slays my neighbor in the next house, will I then wait and see what happens? No, on the third night, I will have gathered all my neighbors from houses 4-9 and we will lie in wait for the murderer at the home of my 3rd neighbor and we will together put an end to him. In my view, that is clearly self-defense. Preemptive, yes, but self-defense nonetheless.

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    Default Re: Weapons ARE or ARE NOT originally part of Kenpo??

    Quote Originally Posted by KenpoGhost View Post
    Well, that's one way to look at it. And I can't say that you are incorrect. But there is another way to look at the situation. As poet John Donne did:

    "No man is an island entire of itself; every man
    is a piece of the continent, a part of the main;
    if a clod be washed away by the sea, Europe
    is the less, as well as if a promontory were, as
    well as a manor of thy friends or of thine
    own were; any man's death diminishes me,
    because I am involved in mankind.
    And therefore never send to know for whom
    the bell tolls; it tolls for thee."


    My own thoughts are these:
    Yes, we are our brothers' keepers, as it were. Or as I once had the discussion in a classroom:
    If my neighbor lives in the house on the north end of the block, and I live in the house 10 doors down at the south end of the block, it may be easy for me to dismiss him. Therefore, if a murderer comes in the night and kills my neighbor in the first house, I may not take notice. If, however, the murder comes again the second night and slays my neighbor in the next house, will I then wait and see what happens? No, on the third night, I will have gathered all my neighbors from houses 4-9 and we will lie in wait for the murderer at the home of my 3rd neighbor and we will together put an end to him. In my view, that is clearly self-defense. Preemptive, yes, but self-defense nonetheless.


    Now this also makes sense,as it appears to me that you are projecting the self to include society as a whole as a single collective organism...to at least some extrent. I like that,and I do agree that it depends on one's perspective...because we can should and do band together to help each other collectively. But it starts with being able to defend the self as an individual and then moving on to help small groups who think the same way we do,and then move to larger and larger groups.

    But a movement starts with one person...and that person must defend him/her self FIRST before there can be a group of size working collaboratively to protect itself. The phrase that we tend to use to distinguish the two are THE STATE and THE INDIVIDUAL. Each have different though similar rights and responsibilities. It is good and laudable and wise to band together for the common good...and it's also a slipper slope that can lead to unchecked vigilantism and extremist militias wherein the best of intentions become warped by the most base of human flaws. Ware thee well. Banding the neighbors together to lay in wait and ambush a murderer is good. Banding the neighbors together and working in concert with the police in active lawful self-defense is better still. Teaching our children so well that we don't have murderers in the first place is best of all. The cycle goes from the individual to society and back to the individual.

    And it starts with the individual being able to protect him/her self...whether it's from back in the most ancient of times when we had to fight off wild animals and marauding humans on an individual scale and then moving on to the here and now using the example of the individual murderer causing a group of individuals to band together in self defense and find a more effective collective response than any of them could have found alone. You noted that the murderer struck close to your home,and that inspired you to band together houses 4-9 and take the fight to the murderer like the people of Barker Ranch and the police rallying to bring to heel and capture Charles Manson. But if you weren't inspired the way that you were? Maybe the group wouldn't've been collectively inspired.

    Everything starts with the individual who started it. Self-defense first, enabling collective defense next.

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    Quote Originally Posted by KenpoChanger View Post
    So a woman using a kubotan against an un-armed papist is a bad thing?
    Sean
    Yes. Save the kobutan for the heathens.

    Sent from my ADR6350 using Tapatalk

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    Default Re: Weapons ARE or ARE NOT originally part of Kenpo??

    American Kenpo's weapon training is your brain since that is the weapon that makes all other weapon use possible in combat or training. I come to you with karate, my empty hands... as with all things, the written word is layered and understood to mean different things at different levels in your martial art career in addition to your academic career. Your hands are only empty if you do not understand your environment or how to use things in your environment. Keep in mind the definition of environment; that of which is ON you, IN you and AROUND you. Are your hands empty if you pull the keys out of your pocket and whip an attackers eyes as he steps within range? As a martial artist choosing the degree of lethality needed to control the event is paramount, therefore empty hands may only be a deceptive tactic as an adanced student or teacher may not advertise what is carried on their person.

    I have no weapons... Because I am one

    But should I be forced to defend my self, my principles or my honor... Respect the unknown

    Should it be a matter of life or death, right or wrong... Do you really wanna party with me?

    Then here is my karate, my empty hands... Until I put YOU in my hands and throw the world at you...

    From my point of view, there are many correct ways to look at concepts and peel back layers for newtoyou understandings of pledges. Each pledge means what it means according to where you are. There are two beginnings, yellow belt and first black; delayed sword and the yellow belt pledge have an evolutionary split, the teaching verson at yellow belt level and your personal expression of these things at blackbelt.
    “If you can't explain it simply, you don't understand it well enough”Albert Einstein

    "The power to do good is also the power to do harm"Milton Friedman

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    Default Re: Weapons ARE or ARE NOT originally part of Kenpo??

    Quote Originally Posted by Dr. Dave in da house View Post
    As the guy who posated the phase progressions videos, I'll respond with my own answer and experience. Moreover, I'll invite you to look up any remaining footage of r. Parker discussing weapons variables in kenpo, as well as invite you to discuss -- with any of the seniors -- his personal obsession with knives and guns. But first:

    Is it a weapons system? No. It is a system that teaches weaponization of the body in motion, which then allows the practitioner to pick up anything in their environment and utilize it as a weapon. Furniture, carpentry tool, a rolled up magazine, car keys, a shoe, a beer can or bottle, a wine glass... survey the room you sit in, and look at the objects within 4 steps of you. The computer keyboard or laptop? If your kids are in danger from multiple or armed assailants, perhaps the chair you're sitting in?

    Slicing and dicing an unarmed opponent in the video was a demonstration of the interpretation of motion patterns, extrapolated to include weapons: Not a confirmation that this is a recommended mode of kenpo skills application. Duh. I, too, have trained under old WW2 FMA profs. 2. One who used to bushwack Japanese troop- carriers after MacArthur had to bail. Not alone in that one.

    Mr. Parker was an absolute whiz at knife fighting, and freely and joyously used to discuss the application of kenpo C&P to weapons. Not escrima, as Doc has pointed out. But real clubs. Things that go "thud". For the people at the Ohana, I introduced them to a cocobolo club I brought with, having a substantial difference in density and weight. Thud, not boing. I have 2 nylon batons, hickory axe handles, etc. stored in different locations throughout the house, so I am never within more than 3 steps from a weapon. Can you guess who I learned that from? I'll give you a hint -- Big Hawaiian guy, white hair, considered the Father of American Karate by many. We talk about him a lot on these sites.

    Saw him do finger set with chopsticks and pencils/pens. Same guy told me to get a mont blanc pen for traveling... not because it was fancy, but because it was stable as a stabbing and tearing weapon. Discussing how to use it, you know what he used as a medium for conversation? Kenpo techniques. "Here's how you use it with [insert name of tech here]".

    Is kenpo a weapons system? No. But by design, it weaponizes the person. Then anything in the environment becomes a weapon. Were the weapons in there originally? Probably not. But do you think Chow didn't get in some knife fights as a collector for his father? Do you think Mr. Parker never got any good knife stuff while beatin' around in the streets of Hawaii?

    Finally, my training took a different tac a long time ago. My best freinds are active or ex-military. Couple SEAL's, some para-rescue; most of my old instructors were also vets, who endeavored to make a extra dime teaching aremed, weaponized kenpo to groups like SEAL's and Force Recon. I got to go along as an assistant on lots of these. Have my own sordid history, but it's nobody's business but mine; also focused on weaponized kenpo. An instructor here or there in my past had very jaded histories -- one was the primary enforcer for a major drug importer. Later died from consequences of drug abuse. He had to be a weaponized kenpo guru... his life depended on it, as he wandered into dens of coked out gangrats to insist on large sums of cash. He was also a highly decorated vietnam vet; just didn't make the transition to civilian life well. So he got what employment made the most sense to him. I met some interesting kats through him; our training sessions were often short, abusive, intense, and extremely informative about weapons applications in kenpo. Guys in that crew were from Parker kenpo, Hawaiian Kenpo (Chow lineage), Limalama, kajukenbo, and other arts that were popular at the time, pre MMA craze. The techniques MUST be interpreted differently by a soldier or thug than by a law enforcement officer or civilian. I remember mentioning that in a thread on the phase progressions, but it musta been missed.

    In that group, I learned a lot about applying "old kenpo" stuff to modern kenpo techniques. Some were guys who got their black belts when there were only about 60 to 70 techniques, and a couple sets. The movement influences were more hula-like... lots of hooking, pulling stuff. It's getting lost. I wanted to present it before they dropped off the planmet, as this generation of approach is dying off, and is still -- like it or not, P.C. or not -- a part of the fabric of kenpo, and kenpo history.
    I wanted to reply but you said it all!

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    Default Weapons ARE or ARE NOT originally part of Kenpo??

    My understanding is that Kenpo, traditionally, is empty handed. In a Japanese or okinawan ryu, it would have been one of several arts taught. While an experienced practitioner of that ryu may seamlessly blend striking, grappling, weaponry, they are given different names when taught.

    It is my opinion that weaponry is not a part of Kenpo, nor is Kenpo a part of weaponry. They are each sub arts of different styles.

    Nowadays, many styles are referred to by their main sub art, for example, the American Kenpo System and the Tracy System of Kenpo contain weapons training. But in my mind, the weapons and the Kenpo are parts of the system.


    Dave Hopper
    Dave

    "I consider that the spiritual life is the life of man's real self, the life of that interior self whose flame is so often allowed to be smothered under the ashes of anxiety and futile concern." - Thomas Merton


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    Default Re: Weapons ARE or ARE NOT originally part of Kenpo??

    I met Ed Parker many times. When Kenpo students reach high level of black belt, some teach and they teach how they were taught. I still teach privately and I teach weapons with Kenpo moves. My take is to use a weapon only if you are outnumbered or they or he has a weapon (s). Other than that, empty hand Kenpo techniques should more than suffice. This is how I teach.
    The weapons I teach are: single and double stick, single collapsible baton, single knife and karmabit and cane. Anything that can be carried legally is usually taught in Kenpo.
    Sifu

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    Default Re: Weapons ARE or ARE NOT originally part of Kenpo??

    Quote Originally Posted by aikikenjitsu View Post
    I met Ed Parker many times. When Kenpo students reach high level of black belt, some teach and they teach how they were taught. I still teach privately and I teach weapons with Kenpo moves. My take is to use a weapon only if you are outnumbered or they or he has a weapon (s). Other than that, empty hand Kenpo techniques should more than suffice. This is how I teach.
    The weapons I teach are: single and double stick, single collapsible baton, single knife and karmabit and cane. Anything that can be carried legally is usually taught in Kenpo.
    Sifu
    During the many times you met Ed Parker, how many times did you witness him referring to himself as master?
    A good teacher is a master of simplification and an enemy of simplism. ~ Louis A. Berman

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    Default Re: Weapons ARE or ARE NOT originally part of Kenpo??

    Quote Originally Posted by Eastcoastkenpoist View Post
    During the many times you met Ed Parker, how many times did you witness him referring to himself as master?
    How does that relate to the topic?

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    Default Re: Weapons ARE or ARE NOT originally part of Kenpo??

    Quote Originally Posted by kenporider View Post
    How does that relate to the topic?
    I was under the misunderstanding that Sifu meant master, so I was questioning why someone who spent so much time with Mr. Parker would call himself master. Since that was very unlike Mr Parker.

    But it was pointed out to me that it means teacher, still a strange self naming when speaking to those who aren't your students, but made my point completely invalid.

    So it doesn't.

    But I think a 95 lbs woman would be justified to take a weapon to a 200lbs attacker.

    It wouldn't need to be two attackers imho.
    A good teacher is a master of simplification and an enemy of simplism. ~ Louis A. Berman

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    Default Re: Weapons ARE or ARE NOT originally part of Kenpo??

    Quote Originally Posted by Eastcoastkenpoist View Post
    I was under the misunderstanding that Sifu meant master, so I was questioning why someone who spent so much time with Mr. Parker would call himself master. Since that was very unlike Mr Parker.

    But it was pointed out to me that it means teacher, still a strange self naming when speaking to those who aren't your students, but made my point completely invalid.

    So it doesn't.

    But I think a 95 lbs woman would be justified to take a weapon to a 200lbs attacker.

    It wouldn't need to be two attackers imho.
    Somebody from another system once told me weapons were equalizers; so, it would all depend on how the woman felt about her attacker.
    Also Mastering Tsing Tao.

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    Default Re: Weapons ARE or ARE NOT originally part of Kenpo??

    I agree completely. While Mr. Parker was given many titles by others, he removed inappropriate foreign language titles from ALL of his arts in general, and in particular with reference to himself. He felt they were inappropriate and had a particular bristle when people would introduce themselves as "master-anything." He felt in modern American Society there were titles that were earned, and than those that were assigned to people based on many factors. A person may feel they have "earned" the title of "sifu," "sensei," etc. however traditionally it is your community of students and peers who assign these titles to an individual, and it is considered a major blunder and height of arrogance to assign them to yourself. Or as he often said to me, "If you got to tell people you're a master/grand master, than you're probably a long way from being one."

    Mr. Parker felt it was ignorant to introduce or call yourself by these titles, and that people who thought you deserved it should be the ones to use them when referring to you as a sign of respect in the American Culture. Mr. Parker never referred to himself as "master," "grand master," etc. He created titles associated with rank in his Kenpo Karate System, however like everything else in that system it was only an advisory for those who participated, and not a mandate. You could call him GM if you wanted to, but he never called himself that. The system had the title, not he. In the early days he would simply introduce himself as "Ed." A lot of the oldtimers took pride in the fact they could call him "Ed." I never did, although as our relationship grew I had other nicknames for him that I used that he liked, while Mister Parker was for polite mixed company. As things grew and he got older he took to introducing himself as simply "Ed Parker" and didn't like being called "Ed" at all, although he never corrected anyone. He felt that was the job of his senior students to enforce protocol among their students, and others.

    Edmund Parker was fond of fielding phone calls for his Dad when other martial artist would call the house and introduce themselves as "Master Somebody." I could always tell because he would smile and say "Mister Who?" Then spend the next couple of minutes with some guy trying to correct him that he was a "master" not "mister," only to have Edmund ultimately tell them, "Well you may be a master to somebody, but you're not my master so I will remain respectful and polite and call you mister. Now, what do you want mister?"

    I was taught in American Society you refer to people as "mister or miss," until they give you permission to call them something different, like their first name or a nickname. But you cannot impose your earned or perceived given titles on others, and will just have to settle for "mister." If you really are a "Sifu," they'll know.

    Disclaimer: Some of my really old students like A.C. Rainey, and others still call me "Sifu," which was pretty standard back in the Chinese Chaunfa/Kenpo days of the early sixties for instructors. However, coming from a Chinese Teacher, I never called myself "Sifu." Traditionally, there is only one "sifu" in a family system.
    "Nothing is more dangerous than the conscientiously ignorant, or the sincerely stupid." - Martin Luther King Jr.

    "Knowledge speaks but wisdom listens." - Ed Parker Sr.

    "It's much easier to quote, than to know." - Ron Chapél


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    Default Re: Weapons ARE or ARE NOT originally part of Kenpo??

    I never used titles when I taught martial arts, I always introduced myself as Sam much like my Kenpo teacher who introduced himself as Mike (I however having had traditional training could only bring myself to address him as Sir)

    I recall the first time someone I was teaching called me "sensei" he was a young boy, one of three brothers that attended my kids class at that point I had already been teaching for a few years on my own; I did not normally use Japanese terms either lol. It sounded funny to me "sensei" I kind of felt my back straighten a little and I admit to feeling a little pride. I did not correct him for calling me that lol. The only time I corrected people is if they introduced me as a master of anything which happened on two or three occasions, its usually with people that do not have a lot of martial arts experience and don't know that only worthless scum refer to themselves as masters in the martial arts lol.
    ~Sami Ibrahim

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    Default Re: Weapons ARE or ARE NOT originally part of Kenpo??

    Quote Originally Posted by Blindside View Post
    Damn Papists.
    Damn you beat me to it!!

    LOL
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    Default Re: Weapons ARE or ARE NOT originally part of Kenpo??

    Quote Originally Posted by Doc View Post
    Edmund Parker was fond of fielding phone calls for his Dad when other martial artist would call the house and introduce themselves as "Master Somebody." I could always tell because he would smile and say "Mister Who?" Then spend the next couple of minutes with some guy trying to correct him that he was a "master" not "mister," only to have Edmund ultimately tell them, "Well you may be a master to somebody, but you're not my master so I will remain respectful and polite and call you mister. Now, what do you want mister?"
    .

    This is outstanding and couldnt agree more.....

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    Default Re: Weapons ARE or ARE NOT originally part of Kenpo??

    Quote Originally Posted by MrBunny View Post
    Damn you beat me to it!!

    LOL
    I just wanna punch 'em.
    Also Mastering Tsing Tao.

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