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Thread: SL - 4 Delayed Sword question

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    Default SL - 4 Delayed Sword question

    This technique popped up in a 5 swords dicussion and rather than pollute that one, I am starting this one.

    My question is that from the design of your technique I come to the conclusion that you don't believe that you can defend yourself before, during or after the attack. Only after the attack has been weathered.

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    Default Re: SL - 4 Delayed Sword question

    Quote Originally Posted by Eastcoastkenpoist View Post
    This technique popped up in a 5 swords dicussion and rather than pollute that one, I am starting this one.

    My question is that from the design of your technique I come to the conclusion that you don't believe that you can defend yourself before, during or after the attack. Only after the attack has been weathered.
    I don't think that is just SL-4 perspective. I think that any time you are attacked you have to neutralize what the attacker has done before you can repond with your own counterattack or attack.

    For example, in Delayed Sword it is against a lapel grab. Notice, it is not against an attemptd grab. So if you "read" the attack because you KNOW you are going to be attacked, you are not going to rely on Delayed Sword, you are going to start with an offensive technique. So there is no "before" really, and what about "during" the attack? Again, the technique is designed against a lapel grab and not an attempt. You are either grabbed or you didn't get grabbed, as the grab is made the attacker is making contact with you and is going to change your balance and posture when he does so. You must regain your balance and posture to then attack/defend effectively and not resort to a halfassed response that won't do anything.
    "For he is God's servant to do you good. But if you do wrong, be afraid, for he does not bear the sword for nothing. He is God's servant, an agent of wrath to bring punishment on the wrongdoer."

    Romans 13:4

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    Default Re: SL - 4 Delayed Sword question

    Good post.
    "To be, rather than to seem"

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    Default Re: SL - 4 Delayed Sword question

    You don't need to regain posture in free space to effectivly attack. You need only to gain neutrality. If you are weighted on the guys arm, you can still hurt him with other strikes
    sean

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    Default Re: SL - 4 Delayed Sword question

    Quote Originally Posted by KenpoChanger View Post
    You don't need to regain posture in free space to effectivly attack. You need only to gain neutrality. If you are weighted on the guys arm, you can still hurt him with other strikes
    sean
    I wouldn't, unless you and I vary greatly in our understanding of posture.
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    and drinking largely sobers us again. --Alexander Pope

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    Default Re: SL - 4 Delayed Sword question

    Quote Originally Posted by punisher73 View Post
    I don't think that is just SL-4 perspective. I think that any time you are attacked you have to neutralize what the attacker has done before you can repond with your own counterattack or attack.

    For example, in Delayed Sword it is against a lapel grab. Notice, it is not against an attemptd grab. So if you "read" the attack because you KNOW you are going to be attacked, you are not going to rely on Delayed Sword, you are going to start with an offensive technique. So there is no "before" really, and what about "during" the attack? Again, the technique is designed against a lapel grab and not an attempt. You are either grabbed or you didn't get grabbed, as the grab is made the attacker is making contact with you and is going to change your balance and posture when he does so. You must regain your balance and posture to then attack/defend effectively and not resort to a halfassed response that won't do anything.
    Yes. If you are standing there and the attacker aggressively reaches out to grab you and you see it, kick him.

    Because it is always easier to defend against a grappling-type attack before it is applied, we train defending it from the point the attacker has put his hands on you. You are forced to learn how to "Survive the Assault" this way. If you have the awareness to avoid the attacker successfully touching you, then you may respond 'pre-emptively,' and I would say that is usually a much easier scenario of defend. Train to defend against the higher degree of difficulty because then you wouldn't be stuck unprepared.
    A little learning is a dangerous thing;
    drink deep, or taste not the Pierian spring:
    there shallow draughts intoxicate the brain,
    and drinking largely sobers us again. --Alexander Pope

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    Default Re: SL - 4 Delayed Sword question

    Quote Originally Posted by Drew View Post
    I wouldn't, unless you and I vary greatly in our understanding of posture.
    We do.

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    Default Re: SL - 4 Delayed Sword question

    Quote Originally Posted by punisher73 View Post
    I don't think that is just SL-4 perspective. I think that any time you are attacked you have to neutralize what the attacker has done before you can repond with your own counterattack or attack.

    For example, in Delayed Sword it is against a lapel grab. Notice, it is not against an attemptd grab. So if you "read" the attack because you KNOW you are going to be attacked, you are not going to rely on Delayed Sword, you are going to start with an offensive technique. So there is no "before" really, and what about "during" the attack? Again, the technique is designed against a lapel grab and not an attempt. You are either grabbed or you didn't get grabbed, as the grab is made the attacker is making contact with you and is going to change your balance and posture when he does so. You must regain your balance and posture to then attack/defend effectively and not resort to a halfassed response that won't do anything.
    Uh, what he said.
    "Nothing is more dangerous than the conscientiously ignorant, or the sincerely stupid." - Martin Luther King Jr.

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    Default Re: SL - 4 Delayed Sword question

    Quote Originally Posted by Drew View Post
    I wouldn't, unless you and I vary greatly in our understanding of posture.
    You're a better man than me. Some people make zero sense.
    "Nothing is more dangerous than the conscientiously ignorant, or the sincerely stupid." - Martin Luther King Jr.

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    Default Re: SL - 4 Delayed Sword question

    This thread is prompted by one of the great Kenpo Fallacies; "Every attack is an attempt," and the answer is always to "Move first." This point of view is prevalent in motion based kenpo to mask the lack of knowledge of students/teachers who do not have the answers to completed assaults, or by those who have never considered reality over just following what some teach as the kenpo curriculum.

    The idea "I don't believe in defending before, or during an attack" is ludicrous, and it astounds me that someone might entertain that notion. Certainly given the opportunity, one should neutralize any threat as soon as possible, even taking the offensive when it is appropriate. Multiple decades as a street cop has made me acutely aware of reality over, "school mat techniques."

    Kenpo-Karate has degenerated to that level because of the dearth of competent instructors ever since the first generation of black belts Mr. Parker recruited to teach his commercial curriculum. They knew what worked in reality and ignore or changed what did not, all with Parker approval.

    Subsequent generations had no real world experience, and instead opted to just teach what was in the manual because its easier than thinking, and much, much easier than creating. They "traditionalized" what was in the manuals like it was gospel, and they were only an outline, that in many cases were dysfunctional ideas.

    While some techniques were labeled "attempts," and rightly so, many more were not but were treated as such anyway. I watched Ed Parker cringe to see someone attempting a defense to "Twisted Twig," by first handing his arm to his training partner, and than as soon as he touched it, try to snatch it back, as if that is a defense against a "wrist-flex lock or throw."

    Clearly some techniques have to be viewed from an after the assault profile perspective. If a technique says, "push," you must wait until pushed to train for a "push." If a technique says "grab," you must not only wait until grabbed, but you must consider what happens to you when you are grabbed realistically because attackers bring Body Momentum to a grab as a byproduct of the assault, just like they do for a "push."

    Why wait you ask? Because sooner or later it is going to happen, and you need to train for it. Unless you're going to tell me that you are always ready, and ever vigilant and will NEVER get caught off-guard, than you need to train for when it happens because in comparison, moving first is a piece-of-cake. Which is I guess why it is the prevailing method among the kenpo warriors who don't have to get their methods tested regularly.

    We have way too many keyboard warriors and mat kenpo experts, who need to get their head out of their butts, and talk to people who fight as a matter of course in their employment. I would rather talk to a good bouncer any day, over some brown/black belt who studied a bunch of techniques, knows all the terms to use in a discussion, but can't fight his way out of a Girl Scout meeting. But then again, some of those Girls Scouts are pretty tough. Much tougher than a lot of kenpo keyboard warriors, who need to go on a ride-a-long with their local P.D. and get an up close look at their worse nightmare. It's called, reality.

    Or not.
    "Nothing is more dangerous than the conscientiously ignorant, or the sincerely stupid." - Martin Luther King Jr.

    "Knowledge speaks but wisdom listens." - Ed Parker Sr.

    "It's much easier to quote, than to know." - Ron Chapél


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    Default Re: SL - 4 Delayed Sword question

    Quote Originally Posted by Doc View Post
    This thread is prompted by one of the great Kenpo Fallacies; "Every attack is an attempt," and the answer is always to "Move first." This point of view is prevalent in motion based kenpo to mask the lack of knowledge of students/teachers who do not have the answers to completed assaults, or by those who have never considered reality over just following what some teach as the kenpo curriculum.

    The idea "I don't believe in defending before, or during an attack" is ludicrous, and it astounds me that someone might entertain that notion. Certainly given the opportunity, one should neutralize any threat as soon as possible, even taking the offensive when it is appropriate. Multiple decades as a street cop has made me acutely aware of reality over, "school mat techniques."

    Kenpo-Karate has degenerated to that level because of the dearth of competent instructors ever since the first generation of black belts Mr. Parker recruited to teach his commercial curriculum. They knew what worked in reality and ignore or changed what did not, all with Parker approval.

    Subsequent generations had no real world experience, and instead opted to just teach what was in the manual because its easier than thinking, and much, much easier than creating. They "traditionalized" what was in the manuals like it was gospel, and they were only an outline, that in many cases were dysfunctional ideas.

    While some techniques were labeled "attempts," and rightly so, many more were not but were treated as such anyway. I watched Ed Parker cringe to see someone attempting a defense to "Twisted Twig," by first handing his arm to his training partner, and than as soon as he touched it, try to snatch it back, as if that is a defense against a "wrist-flex lock or throw."

    Clearly some techniques have to be viewed from an after the assault profile perspective. If a technique says, "push," you must wait until pushed to train for a "push." If a technique says "grab," you must not only wait until grabbed, but you must consider what happens to you when you are grabbed realistically because attackers bring Body Momentum to a grab as a byproduct of the assault, just like they do for a "push."

    Why wait you ask? Because sooner or later it is going to happen, and you need to train for it. Unless you're going to tell me that you are always ready, and ever vigilant and will NEVER get caught off-guard, than you need to train for when it happens because in comparison, moving first is a piece-of-cake. Which is I guess why it is the prevailing method among the kenpo warriors who don't have to get their methods tested regularly.

    We have way too many keyboard warriors and mat kenpo experts, who need to get their head out of their butts, and talk to people who fight as a matter of course in their employment. I would rather talk to a good bouncer any day, over some brown/black belt who studied a bunch of techniques, knows all the terms to use in a discussion, but can't fight his way out of a Girl Scout meeting. But then again, some of those Girls Scouts are pretty tough. Much tougher than a lot of kenpo keyboard warriors, who need to go on a ride-a-long with their local P.D. and get an up close look at their worse nightmare. It's called, reality.

    Or not.
    Ayup. I haunt these digs less and less, because it blows my mind the number of times I read, "That's the way it's written"; "that's the right way", etc. The bulk of my kenpo time has been under OKG's, and they universally have ascribed to the idea of -- as Mr. LaBounty has called it -- "rough and tumble" training. If it's about a headlock defense, then slap on a headlock and hold on until the other guy actually makes the escape work. Not a headlock attempt. If it's about a two-handed lapel grab, then latch on to them-there lapels, and sling the guy around... make him get out by establishing good foundations, and jacking you up, but don't you dare just let him go cuz he started flicking the air with the moves.

    Good rule of thumb for training, IMO -- there's no such thing as an attempt. Defenses against attempts are flinches. Attempted knife thrust? Well... is he stabbing at you, or not? Attempted push? Well... if he's half-heartedly working himself up to shoving you, his weight and momentum will be different from that of a balls-out, full-court press meant to knock you back into the fence or slam you into the wall in hopes of knocking the wind out of you. I didn't know what I was in for when I started bouncing, but am damned glad I did it. I think if more kenpo guys got out, got in brawls, and found themselves on the frightful end of some ugly altercations, there might be better discussions online. And better understandings of practical issues in training and execution.

    Back to lurking,

    D.
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    Default Re: SL - 4 Delayed Sword question

    Quote Originally Posted by Dr. Dave in da house View Post
    Ayup. I haunt these digs less and less, because it blows my mind the number of times I read, "That's the way it's written"; "that's the right way", etc. The bulk of my kenpo time has been under OKG's, and they universally have ascribed to the idea of -- as Mr. LaBounty has called it -- "rough and tumble" training. If it's about a headlock defense, then slap on a headlock and hold on until the other guy actually makes the escape work. Not a headlock attempt. If it's about a two-handed lapel grab, then latch on to them-there lapels, and sling the guy around... make him get out by establishing good foundations, and jacking you up, but don't you dare just let him go cuz he started flicking the air with the moves.

    Good rule of thumb for training, IMO -- there's no such thing as an attempt. Defenses against attempts are flinches. Attempted knife thrust? Well... is he stabbing at you, or not? Attempted push? Well... if he's half-heartedly working himself up to shoving you, his weight and momentum will be different from that of a balls-out, full-court press meant to knock you back into the fence or slam you into the wall in hopes of knocking the wind out of you. I didn't know what I was in for when I started bouncing, but am damned glad I did it. I think if more kenpo guys got out, got in brawls, and found themselves on the frightful end of some ugly altercations, there might be better discussions online. And better understandings of practical issues in training and execution.

    Back to lurking,

    D.
    You can run but you can't hide.
    "Nothing is more dangerous than the conscientiously ignorant, or the sincerely stupid." - Martin Luther King Jr.

    "Knowledge speaks but wisdom listens." - Ed Parker Sr.

    "It's much easier to quote, than to know." - Ron Chapél


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    Default Re: SL - 4 Delayed Sword question

    Now that that's being said, let's take the assumption at face value.

    It is 100 percent correct.

    I come to the conclusion that you don't believe that you can defend yourself before, during or after the attack. Only after the attack has been weathered.
    This is why Delayed Sword is usually the FIRST technique a new student learns. It is being taught to a novitiate who just walked through the door. Someone that could very well have zero fighting skills.

    This is a very, very important technique for a noob. Grabbing isn't about hurting someone with a grab. It is about dominion, power, and control....and often about someone an attacker who is physically bigger and stronger. Kidnapping, sexual assault, domestic violence, murder...they are more likely to incorporate a grab than a punch or a kick.

    That is not to say that it is impossible for a novitiate to defend themselves before the grab hits, whether it be through instinct, blind luck, other material learned (ie: star block set), or evasion. But this is taught as an actual grab that is undefended until the attacker makes contact because that is an extremely likely scenario for a person, especially a more vulnerable person. to be in. So yes, not only is it correct, it is proper (not to mention wise!!) that this assumes the defender cannot have defended themselves before the attacker grabs on.


    And Dr. Dave, if that's not enough to make you show your face more often, I'm gonna blab everywhere that you just got schooled by someone who ever made it past orange. *throws down the gauntlet*

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    Default Re: SL - 4 Delayed Sword question

    Quote Originally Posted by Carol View Post
    Now that that's being said, let's take the assumption at face value.

    It is 100 percent correct.

    This is why Delayed Sword is usually the FIRST technique a new student learns. It is being taught to a novitiate who just walked through the door. Someone that could very well have zero fighting skills.

    This is a very, very important technique for a noob. Grabbing isn't about hurting someone with a grab. It is about dominion, power, and control....and often about someone an attacker who is physically bigger and stronger. Kidnapping, sexual assault, domestic violence, murder...they are more likely to incorporate a grab than a punch or a kick.

    That is not to say that it is impossible for a novitiate to defend themselves before the grab hits, whether it be through instinct, blind luck, other material learned (ie: star block set), or evasion. But this is taught as an actual grab that is undefended until the attacker makes contact because that is an extremely likely scenario for a person, especially a more vulnerable person. to be in. So yes, not only is it correct, it is proper (not to mention wise!!) that this assumes the defender cannot have defended themselves before the attacker grabs on.


    And Dr. Dave, if that's not enough to make you show your face more often, I'm gonna blab everywhere that you just got schooled by someone who ever made it past orange. *throws down the gauntlet*
    For the record, my name is Bennett, and I ain't in it!
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    Default Re: SL - 4 Delayed Sword question

    Quote Originally Posted by Carol View Post
    Now that that's being said, let's take the assumption at face value.

    It is 100 percent correct.

    This is why Delayed Sword is usually the FIRST technique a new student learns. It is being taught to a novitiate who just walked through the door. Someone that could very well have zero fighting skills.

    This is a very, very important technique for a noob. Grabbing isn't about hurting someone with a grab. It is about dominion, power, and control....and often about someone an attacker who is physically bigger and stronger. Kidnapping, sexual assault, domestic violence, murder...they are more likely to incorporate a grab than a punch or a kick.

    That is not to say that it is impossible for a novitiate to defend themselves before the grab hits, whether it be through instinct, blind luck, other material learned (ie: star block set), or evasion. But this is taught as an actual grab that is undefended until the attacker makes contact because that is an extremely likely scenario for a person, especially a more vulnerable person. to be in. So yes, not only is it correct, it is proper (not to mention wise!!) that this assumes the defender cannot have defended themselves before the attacker grabs on.


    And Dr. Dave, if that's not enough to make you show your face more often, I'm gonna blab everywhere that you just got schooled by someone who ever made it past orange. *throws down the gauntlet*
    Each technique in the system is designed to illustrate the application of both basics (punches, strikes, kicks, foot maneuvers, etc.), and concepts and principles that guide the application of basics within positionally relative contexts. One day Rich Hale is up in Santa Rosa, teaching a small get together (couple students, some friends). Someone asks about Delayed Sword... is it against a grab, or a push? He sez, "What? Nobody told you it was against a high knife thrust to the throat? Of course not. Mrs. Smith, homemaker, would be horrified to drop little Johnny up for classes if she saw white belts slashing at each other. But this gets them used to the motion, so that when they DO beome intermediate ranks, or Mom isn't looking...".

    I damned-near choked on the grin I was trying to hide. One of the things each technique training session is meant to do, is to decondition frightened reactivity to targeted aggression. I intentionally pick the biggest, meanest, nastiest dudes in session to partner up with. I don't want to be surprised by the lump of fear in my throat when some pituitarily abundant walking hairball starts charging at me with ill intent. Odd thing is, you'd be amazed at the number of BLACK BELTS that have never trained aggressively before, and look all butt-hurt when you actually put them in a rear-armlock and crank while training Wing techs, or shove super hard & latch onto the gi so hard it gets chest hair in the grip on Kimono techs. Realistic training starts with realistic attacks. Which means teaching ukes how to find their fire and bring it, if they have never had to do so before.

    My last two students have both been women. Both already knew kenpo well enough (one a brown belt, one a black). What they didn't know was how to use their bodies, or how to deal with the onset of injurious aggression. Or, by extension, how to deliver their own basics with injurious intent. One was infinitely more trainable than the other, but both are better off after our training, simply because they are both a little more barbarian in their training and intent. One of the reasons I enjoy training at Docs, is his guys (and gals) train hard. Buddy of mine is a blue(?) belt there. When he shows up to class at MSU, I see him the next day to set the bones, knocked out of alignment and splinted by spasm as a reult of multiple heavy contact jarrings. As I adjust him, his arms are bruised to hell from hundreds of blocks against earnest punch attacks. I love to see that, because it means when someone is trying to free him from his teeth, he will be right at home getting his hands up, and he will do so with the authority and expertise that comes from constant struggle against resistance, under a watchful eye. Some of the sickest pleasure I get out of this stuff is when I just block the first attack so hard, that the bad guy drops from the pain of clanging bones.

    THAT'S kenpo.
    Clear mind, clear movement. Mastery of the Arts is mastery over the Self. That in this moment, this motion, the thoughts, memories, impulses and passions that cloud the mind must yield to the clarity of purpose, and purity of motion.

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    Default Re: SL - 4 Delayed Sword question

    Quote Originally Posted by Dr. Dave in da house View Post
    Ayup. I haunt these digs less and less, because it blows my mind the number of times I read, "That's the way it's written"; "that's the right way", etc. The bulk of my kenpo time has been under OKG's, and they universally have ascribed to the idea of -- as Mr. LaBounty has called it -- "rough and tumble" training. If it's about a headlock defense, then slap on a headlock and hold on until the other guy actually makes the escape work. Not a headlock attempt. If it's about a two-handed lapel grab, then latch on to them-there lapels, and sling the guy around... make him get out by establishing good foundations, and jacking you up, but don't you dare just let him go cuz he started flicking the air with the moves.

    Good rule of thumb for training, IMO -- there's no such thing as an attempt. Defenses against attempts are flinches. Attempted knife thrust? Well... is he stabbing at you, or not? Attempted push? Well... if he's half-heartedly working himself up to shoving you, his weight and momentum will be different from that of a balls-out, full-court press meant to knock you back into the fence or slam you into the wall in hopes of knocking the wind out of you. I didn't know what I was in for when I started bouncing, but am damned glad I did it. I think if more kenpo guys got out, got in brawls, and found themselves on the frightful end of some ugly altercations, there might be better discussions online. And better understandings of practical issues in training and execution.

    Back to lurking,

    D.
    I think that this is why it is even more important for you to keep posting on this forum. Put back that dose of reality into the mix. I know I have copy/pasted MANY of your posts to read and reread and digest over and over. It is becoming more and more rare to get information like that.

    I also think that it is a microsm of our society in general. I know when talking with many of the LE instructors I know, they all talk about how it is rare that the cadets have ever been in a fist fight before. It used to be they would put the boxing gloves on you and you would have to spar with each other to know what it was like to actually get hit in the snot locker and keep going. Nowadays, they don't even allow that type of sparring because of liability.
    "For he is God's servant to do you good. But if you do wrong, be afraid, for he does not bear the sword for nothing. He is God's servant, an agent of wrath to bring punishment on the wrongdoer."

    Romans 13:4

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    Default Re: SL - 4 Delayed Sword question

    Quote Originally Posted by punisher73 View Post
    I don't think that is just SL-4 perspective. I think that any time you are attacked you have to neutralize what the attacker has done before you can repond with your own counterattack or attack.

    For example, in Delayed Sword it is against a lapel grab. Notice, it is not against an attemptd grab. So if you "read" the attack because you KNOW you are going to be attacked, you are not going to rely on Delayed Sword, you are going to start with an offensive technique. So there is no "before" really, and what about "during" the attack? Again, the technique is designed against a lapel grab and not an attempt. You are either grabbed or you didn't get grabbed, as the grab is made the attacker is making contact with you and is going to change your balance and posture when he does so. You must regain your balance and posture to then attack/defend effectively and not resort to a halfassed response that won't do anything.

    Your Delayed Sword is against a Lapel grab?

    Interesting... ours is against a right straight punch.

    Though we do train that it can be used against a push/grab/reach... etc.

    Mr.Bunny
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    Default Re: SL - 4 Delayed Sword question

    Quote Originally Posted by MrBunny View Post
    Your Delayed Sword is against a Lapel grab?

    Interesting... ours is against a right straight punch.

    Though we do train that it can be used against a push/grab/reach... etc.

    Mr.Bunny
    I've seen it taught both ways, my point was that it was for an actual attack though and not just an attempt.
    "For he is God's servant to do you good. But if you do wrong, be afraid, for he does not bear the sword for nothing. He is God's servant, an agent of wrath to bring punishment on the wrongdoer."

    Romans 13:4

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    Default Re: SL - 4 Delayed Sword question

    Quote Originally Posted by punisher73 View Post
    I've seen it taught both ways, my point was that it was for an actual attack though and not just an attempt.
    It works for any extension of the arm..

    Though I have found that it works best with the extention of the arm, palm down to expose the radial nerve, and leading with the same side leg exposing a path to the groin. (though if the path to the groin is not there you can usually get the femoral nerve on the inside of the thigh)

    observation

    Mr.Bunny
    "Do you have any bactine? Some of this blood is mine."

    "Dear Die-ary, today I stuffed some dolls full of dead rats I put in the blender. I'm wondering if, maybe, there really is something wrong with me."

    -JTHM

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    Default Re: SL - 4 Delayed Sword question

    Quote Originally Posted by punisher73 View Post
    I've seen it taught both ways, my point was that it was for an actual attack though and not just an attempt.
    Actually, according to the Web Of Knowledge in the Parker curriculum, it is supposed to be taught as a grab. Because of the difficulty in actually dealing with grabs, many instructors chose to turn all attacks into the much easier "Attempts," and treat all attacks as if they were, or are punches for simplicity sake.
    "Nothing is more dangerous than the conscientiously ignorant, or the sincerely stupid." - Martin Luther King Jr.

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