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    Default master keys

    Reading an old interview with Ed Parker he mentions that Chow did not teach him many of the modifications and developments he introduced into his own art, but that he had given him master keys to open his own doors.

    I am curious if anyone has any information directly relating to what he was referring to here.

    I know that so many Kenpo people refer to certain master key moves and movements, but I am curious if those are actually what Ed Parker was referring to, and if they were if they are the same ones he was given, or different, less or more.. and if they were not, then what was he talking about? a certain outlook or viewpoint on the arts? Or what?

    Just curious because I hear so many talk about master keys, and to be completely honest the vast majority of the people talking about them really seem to be talking out their hind ends...
    I am curious if this has potential to go somewhere else then the usual master key conversations.

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    Default Re: master keys

    Quote Originally Posted by LuckyKBoxer View Post
    Reading an old interview with Ed Parker he mentions that Chow did not teach him many of the modifications and developments he introduced into his own art, but that he had given him master keys to open his own doors.

    I am curious if anyone has any information directly relating to what he was referring to here.

    I know that so many Kenpo people refer to certain master key moves and movements, but I am curious if those are actually what Ed Parker was referring to, and if they were if they are the same ones he was given, or different, less or more.. and if they were not, then what was he talking about? a certain outlook or viewpoint on the arts? Or what?

    Just curious because I hear so many talk about master keys, and to be completely honest the vast majority of the people talking about them really seem to be talking out their hind ends...
    I am curious if this has potential to go somewhere else then the usual master key conversations.
    Good question,

    Consider this:

    Within Mr. Parkers 24 technique there is one technique where a specific concept is taught one time.
    It is Flight to Freedom, while it begins the same as Locked Wing, another variable is introduced. The attacker actually blocks the defenders initial counter defense.
    This is not a [What If] because in a what if ( which I don't consider, because it introduces new variable to contend with and should be its own tech) the base model technique will most often allow for minor alterations of the attack.

    In the case of Flight to Freedom the entire intial base defense model has been changed from an attack followed with a defensive counter, to an attack followed by a defensive counter, followed by a offensive counter to the defenders counter, followed by yet another defensive counter.

    This concept is only taught once yet makes a person understand that it can happen anywhere within the 154 technique base system. That is the Key
    How many knife attacks in the 154 base system happen from the flank? None, how many are slicing, none all but one are from a right thrust from the attacker. Yet in the club attacks we have attacks from the flank and we have slicing movement so to speak in Returning Storm. Do we need a specific attack from the flank with a knife to understand that a weapon attack can happen from that posistion,No. The lesson or Master KEY has already been translated with the club attack. I would recomend training with someone who has indepth knowledge of knife fighting, and there to is another Master Key.

    My point is this I dont need 154 technique examples that block my defensive counter, nor do I need 154 technique examples of a knife defense. I just need to understand that the Master Key Lessons are spread throughout the system, then the movements that repete themselves are broken down into categories for easier relationship groupings often refered to as Master Key Movement, Master Key Basic or Master Key Techniques. They realy are just family related groupings of patern movement.
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    Default Re: master keys

    Quote Originally Posted by LuckyKBoxer View Post
    Reading an old interview with Ed Parker he mentions that Chow did not teach him many of the modifications and developments he introduced into his own art, but that he had given him master keys to open his own doors.

    I am curious if anyone has any information directly relating to what he was referring to here.

    I know that so many Kenpo people refer to certain master key moves and movements, but I am curious if those are actually what Ed Parker was referring to, and if they were if they are the same ones he was given, or different, less or more.. and if they were not, then what was he talking about? a certain outlook or viewpoint on the arts? Or what?

    Just curious because I hear so many talk about master keys, and to be completely honest the vast majority of the people talking about them really seem to be talking out their hind ends...
    I am curious if this has potential to go somewhere else then the usual master key conversations.
    I've read many threads wherein posters dicussed "what are the Master Key (blank)" but reading this quote from Mr Parker makes me think he was speaking metaphorically - at least in this instance. Did he go on to define the M.K. techniques etc- I have no idea.
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    Default Re: master keys

    Unfortunately those master key ideas don't have a physical manifestation or translation in human bio-mechanics, even though they are good concepts. SO what you left with is a nice intellectual exercise that will not translate to the real world of execution.
    "Nothing is more dangerous than the conscientiously ignorant, or the sincerely stupid." - Martin Luther King Jr.

    "Knowledge speaks but wisdom listens." - Ed Parker Sr.

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    Default Re: master keys

    I was reading the Q & A section of Rich Hale's Kenpo Journal, BTW if anyone is interested in American Kenpo in any way shape or form, do yourselves a favor and get it! Anyways, I was browsing through the Q & A portion and read his comment and it really seemed to me that he was talking about lot more then what I had gotten from reading threads on Master Keys before.... Like you mention there David.
    Also I am chewing over what you wrote Brad, I am not ignoring you, just thinking... let the engine warm up a bit lol.

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    Default Re: master keys

    Absolutely! The biggest credit Mr. Parker gave to Sifu Chow was giving him the idea to set aside traditionalism, and focusing on practical applications built around predetermined attack scenarios. This is "The Master Key" idea that forms the basis for Ed Parker various evolutionary works. But, in the depths of Mr. Parker's work, those are only Master Key Ideas, not Master Keys of physical execution. There are no Master Key Physical Movements.
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    Default Re: master keys

    Quote Originally Posted by Doc View Post
    Unfortunately those master key ideas don't have a physical manifestation or translation in human bio-mechanics, even though they are good concepts. SO what you left with is a nice intellectual exercise that will not translate to the real world of execution.
    Okay I was getting the feeling from the interview answer that it was more then a physical thing, I wish the damn interviewer would have pressed forward and expanded more on it. What I do not get is how a possible intellectual exercise on this subject of Master keys used to open my own doors so to speak would not translate into the real world of execution. I am interested in more detail here...or I am just going to have to come up and take you to lunch to start prying this out of you Mr. Chapel? LOL

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    Default Re: master keys

    Read my post on Universal Index." Same thing. There is no universal, master anything keys or indexes in the real world because human movement is specific in function, not general, as in ideas. Having a "general" idea might get you started, until someone teaches you the "specifics" of function. "Ideas" are just easier, and allows everyone to have an opinion and not be deemed incorrect. A great sales job and no broken egos. But, I'll still take the dinner.
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    Default Re: master keys

    Greetings.

    In my experience thinking and playing around this Master Key "X" ideas (X being Techniques, Movements, etc.), I was forced to ask what skill will this knowledge bring me at the time the rubber meets the road.

    I agree with Doc that what was being referred to was about Sifu Chow's emphasis on practical application.

    Yet on the matter of Master Key "X" you can easily find similar patterns of motion, yet many times the forces that create or support the motions are not addressed... and they are different from each other on most cases, if not all.

    The usefulness that I can possibly see is that as a teacher, you can use this to motivate training drills for students so that they keep moving and countering and surviving no matter what, and an attitude of exploration on higher skilled students. Thus it depends on the goals, knowledge and skill of the instructor... as always.

    Yet I think the higher the skill of the students, the more they should concentrate on optimal execution of their basics and making sure that their responses to attacks take into account all if not most of what an attacker can do and train to ingrain total control of the situation as much as possible, according to the rules of engagement and physical/environmental parameters.

    Optimal execution of basics is no trivial matter. It is a Meta-Master Key!!!

    Hope that helps!

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    Default Re: master keys

    My understanding of Master key movements is related to the 2 "universal joints" that we have, our hips and our shoulders. We can move these 4 joints in just about any way, but some of these ways are going to cause damage, if not immediate, definitely over time. So the master key methods of execution that I have been taught, and teach, are the proper ways to move these 2 ball in sockets joints. Moved properly they provide a lifetime of good service.

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    Default Re: master keys

    Quote Originally Posted by Eastcoastkenpoist View Post
    My understanding of Master key movements is related to the 2 "universal joints" that we have, our hips and our shoulders. We can move these 4 joints in just about any way, but some of these ways are going to cause damage, if not immediate, definitely over time. So the master key methods of execution that I have been taught, and teach, are the proper ways to move these 2 ball in sockets joints. Moved properly they provide a lifetime of good service.
    Three thousand seperate moves to teach makes for a better business model; so, don't rock the boat. LOL
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    Default Re: master keys

    A master key in locksmithing is something that will open all the locks. For example, in the school where I am assigned each teacher has their own door lock. They can't open the door to another teacher's room. But, ALL of the locks are close enough that ONE key will open all of those doors.

    When I was first introduced to "Master Keys" (video from Dr. LaTourrette) it wasn't specific techniques that some people talk about. When he discussed master keys, they were elements that should be in EVERY technique that you do. Things like proper breathing, focus, proper stance and footwork. Other master keys were types of movement. For example, Short one teaches a beginner the master keys of creating distance with proper stance and how to block an attack. The beginning of Short 2 teaches a person with a bit more practice the proper way to move into an attack to counter it. Both of these ideas are going to be utilized in almost all of your punch techniques. They were the concepts contained within those movements and not the movements themsevles.
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    Default Re: master keys

    Skip Hancock's book "Mastering Kenpo" has a great explanation of the "master key" concept. I highly recomend it.

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    Default Re: master keys

    Quote Originally Posted by LuckyKBoxer View Post

    I am curious if this has potential to go somewhere else then the usual master key conversations.
    It has gone to a discusion of execution so the lock cant be found to be opened. Kind of like the big bang theroy, until the singularity can be defined, it cant be explanied by science.
    Last edited by MARSHALLS KENPO; 03-24-2010 at 01:07 PM.
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    Default Re: master keys

    I guess we need to define the "Master Key" then. It was explained to me as being similar to Logic, being able to catagorize something as Useful, works in most examples, Unuseful, works in some examples, or Useless, just doesn't work.

    The explanation then went on to give an example of a carpenter with a philips head screwdriver, can he build a house with it? Sure he could score the wood until it would break through to cut it, he could screw the wood together and build a structure.
    Would it be the best way to do it? No way.

    A master key for the carpenter would probably be a Hammer/Saw tool.

    I will alse add the Master Key to Logic, since we are on the topic. The 3 points of view.
    Last edited by Eastcoastkenpoist; 03-24-2010 at 03:07 PM.

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    Default Re: master keys

    Quote Originally Posted by punisher73 View Post
    A master key in locksmithing is something that will open all the locks. For example, in the school where I am assigned each teacher has their own door lock. They can't open the door to another teacher's room. But, ALL of the locks are close enough that ONE key will open all of those doors.

    When I was first introduced to "Master Keys" (video from Dr. LaTourrette) it wasn't specific techniques that some people talk about. When he discussed master keys, they were elements that should be in EVERY technique that you do. Things like proper breathing, focus, proper stance and footwork. Other master keys were types of movement. For example, Short one teaches a beginner the master keys of creating distance with proper stance and how to block an attack. The beginning of Short 2 teaches a person with a bit more practice the proper way to move into an attack to counter it. Both of these ideas are going to be utilized in almost all of your punch techniques. They were the concepts contained within those movements and not the movements themsevles.
    Yes sir, the "so-called "master keys" are what few seem to know, called "basics."
    "Nothing is more dangerous than the conscientiously ignorant, or the sincerely stupid." - Martin Luther King Jr.

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    Default Re: master keys

    Ha! I think the nail has been hit. Right on its head.
    "To be, rather than to seem"

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    Default Re: master keys

    Quote Originally Posted by Doc View Post
    Yes sir, the "so-called "master keys" are what few seem to know, called "basics."
    Hence the term Master Key Basics.
    Sean

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    Default Re: master keys

    Quote Originally Posted by Doc View Post
    Yes sir, the "so-called "master keys" are what few seem to know, called "basics."
    Well, I have managed to do quite a bit without having to call what I do Master Keys to this point..To me, my "Master Keys" that have enabled me to figure out how to defeat many different stylists, under many different rule sets, and to learn new styles and apply my Kenpo to them are not basics, it is a way of thinking, and viewing martial arts, and martial artists around me, both highly skilled, and not so skilled.
    I read the interview with Ed Parker and he absolutely could have been referring to basics, but I doubt it. Given the feel of the question and answer it seemed to me that there was more waiting to come out, and as I thought might be the case whatever that was is most likely going to remain that way. I really get frustrated that I was never able to discuss things like this directly with Ed Parker, I initially had hope that some or more people who talked to Ed Parker directly about it would comment with a story, or commentary of their version of that discussion. I guess my question was more for trying to get a feel for the man. I appreciate everyones comments so far, and absolutely mean nothing negative towards anyone who has participated here by my comments, just my own observations.. I guess its one of those things where In my school we did not come up having anything referred to as master key anythings... and to hear so many people have so many different stories on what they are or are not.. meh... carry on lol.

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    Default Re: master keys

    Okay, see if this helps you out:
    (( Note: NONE of what follows is from myself, but from my notes, which are largely copied and pasted from webpages. Unfortunately, since I didn't leave MYSELF notes on where they come from.....I can't attribute a lot of it to it's proper sources. SO....I hope I don't offend anyone by not mentioning the original author(s) : Likewise, any errors herein are MINE ))

    MASTER KEY MOVEMENT(S) are defined as being a move or series of moves that can be used in more than one predicament with equal effect. For example a rear heel kick, shin scrape, and instep stomp can be used for a FULL NELSON, BEAR HUG with the arms free or pinned, REAR ARM LOCK, etc. Or, an arm break can be applied to a cross wrist grab, a lapel grab, or hair grab - application of the arm break would remain constant, but the methods of controlling the wrist would vary.

    In comparison,

    MASTER KEY TECHNIQUES entail sequential arrangements of movements that can be applied to a number of predicaments. In the case of a MASTER KEY TECHNIQUE it is a single technique that may be used as a BASE MOVE. Other similar techniques may then be perceived as formulations of it.

    In many ways they are like Family Groupings and Associated Moves; they are the result of an individual's further association of movements; they are the next logical step in the search for spontaneity. Remember, the following are only one set of model groupings. The art of Master Key Techniques is to eventually be able to use any and all techniques as a BASE MOVE and to see how all
    other techniques are formulations of it. This should lead you to the next level of spontaneity.

    MASTER KEY DRILLS are training drills that work actions that are incorporated over and over all throughout the system such as the Training Horse and straight 2 - Knuckle Punch (Master Key Drill).

    OK, Ok Here are the Sot after 10:

    THUNDERING HAMMERS + 32 "variations of"
    FIVE SWORDS + 44
    LONE KIMONO + 9
    SHIELDING HAMMER + 17
    REPEATING MACE + 8
    LOCKED WING + 1
    INTELLECTUAL DEPARTURE + 4
    THRUSTING SALUTE + 2
    PARTING WINGS + 24
    HOOKING WINGS + 4
    -------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------

    Tech Name: # of variations based on that tech

    THUNDERING HAMMERS 32
    Sleeper
    Dance of Death
    Grasping Eagles
    Unwinding Pendulum
    Dance of Darkness
    Attacking Mace
    Flashing Wings
    Darting Mace
    Crossing Talons
    Desperate Falcons
    Circling Fans
    Leaping Crane
    Gathering Clouds
    Circling the Horizon
    Piercing Lance
    Taming the Mace
    Shield and Mace
    Back Breaker
    Kneel of Compulsion
    Brushing the Storm
    Escape from the Storm
    Flashing Mace
    Glancing Salute
    Clipping the Storm
    Glancing Lance
    Ram and the Eagle
    Returning Storm
    Grasp of Death
    Gift of Destruction
    Gift in Return

    Gift of Destin
    Broken Gift


    FIVE SWORDS 46
    Delayed Sword

    Fatal Deviation
    Alternating Mace
    Snaking Talons
    Aggressive Twins
    Entwined Maces
    Defying the Storm
    Mace of Aggression
    Snapping Twigs
    The Bear and the Ram
    Tripping Arrow
    Falling Falcon
    Conquering Shield
    Cross of Death
    Bowing to Buddha
    Raining Claw
    Glancing Wing
    Prance of the Tiger
    Circling Fans
    Deflecting Hammer
    Hugging Pendulum
    Retreating Pendulum
    Dance of Darkness
    Unwinding Pendulum
    Menacing Twirl
    Reversing Circles
    Swinging Pendulum
    Detour From Doom
    Deceptive Panther
    Charging Ram
    Broken Ram
    Intercepting the Ram
    Spreading Branch
    Reprimanding the Bears
    Captured Twigs
    Crushing Hammer
    Obscure Wing
    Calming the Storm
    Securing the Storm
    Triggered Salute
    Twisted Twig
    Bow of Compulsion
    Reversing Mace
    Circling Destruction
    Gripping Talon
    Twisted Rod



    LONE KIMONO: 9
    Twin Kimono
    Clutching Feathers
    Locking Horns
    Captured Leaves
    Entangled Wing
    Snapping Twig
    Raking Mace
    Obscure Sword
    Falcons of Force



    INTELLECTUAL DEPARTURE: 4
    Circle of Doom
    Rotating Destruction
    Unfolding The Dark
    Encounter With Danger


    SHIELDING HAMMER: 20
    Sword of Destruction
    Evading The Storm
    Protecting Fans
    Shield and Mace
    Leap From Danger
    Dominating Circles
    Circles of Protection
    Raining Lance
    Circling Windmills
    Unfurling Cran
    Reversing Circles
    Leap of Death
    Destructive Kneel
    Destructive Fans

    Glancing SpearDesperate Falcons
    Broken Rod
    Fatal Deviation
    Entwined Maces
    Snaking Talons



    REPEATING MACE: 8
    Shield and Sword
    Twirling Hammers
    Checking The Storm
    Twirling Wings
    Entwined Lance
    Parting of the Snakes
    Capturing the Rod
    Defying the Rod


    LOCKED WING: 1
    Flight to Freedom


    THRUSTING SALUTE: 2
    Buckling Branch
    Striking Serpent's Head



    PARTING WINGS: 24
    Thrusting Prongs
    Begging Hands
    Thrusting Wedge
    Blinding Sacrifice
    Twist of Fate
    Crashing Wings
    Spiraling Twigs
    Squatting Sacrifice
    Scraping Hoof
    Repeated Devastation
    Cross of Destruction
    Fallen Cross
    Heavenly Ascent
    Squeezing the Peach
    Crossed Twigs
    Circling Wing
    Wings of Silk
    Obstructing the Storm
    Capturing the Storm
    Calming the Storm
    Securing the Storm
    Snakes of Wisdom
    Grip of Death
    Escape From Death



    HOOKING WINGS: 4
    Fatal Cross
    Twirling Sacrifice
    Defensive Cross
    Marriage of the Rams



    Hope that helps LukyKBoxer

    Have a good weekend!

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  32. The Following 2 Users Say Thank You to Brother John For This Useful Post:

    J Ellis (03-28-2010),LuckyKBoxer (03-28-2010)

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