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    Default Re: master keys

    Quote Originally Posted by Brother John View Post
    no worries

    I think that what you might be referring too are the master key movements, but I may be mistaken. This is the thing that I said Mr. Skip Hancock deals with VERY VERY well in his book "Mastering Kenpo". ( highly recommend it )

    The master key motions, to my understanding, have to do with what you might call 'roots' of our movements in Kenpo. Take for instance the chain of muscular contractions that are incorporated in executing an "upper cut" punch, what I'd rather call an 'inverted punch'....as I'm used to the upper cut being more like the rising punch of a boxer. Anyway, this action, moving the fist from your hip to a short inverted fist approximately at your solar plexus level is the initial or 'root' action that engages Many if not MOST of our hand techniques in Kenpo. EVEN if you're not initiating the action from a 'trigger point' at your hip but from a hands up 'boxer's guard' type position, the sequence of muscle action is relative. Look for instance at a reverse punch, the initial action is that inverted punch...and you move through that position/action on your way to completing the punch. Then look at an extended outward block. You move through that same action when executing it. Look at an upward block, Sam Ting. Essentially, almost any action involving extending your arm away from your torso will have this or at least a Very similar motion. Mr. Hancock states in his book that instead of practicing 1000 vertical punches, 1000 inward blocks, 1000 palm strikes, 1000 spear hands....etc, he performs 100 of each of those, but then puts a great deal more work into perfecting the inverted punch....as it is the ROOT or "Master Key" (initial action) of ALL the rest. Therefore making the best use of his time and energy. If you get that initial action smooth, strong and lightening quick........all that stems from it will be that much better.

    Now take the master key for kicking: the front knee strike. Pretty self explanatory there. If when moving forward to kick with a side kick, roundhouse kick, front kick, crescent kick......etc., your leg/hip structure will move through the initial action of raising your foot from the ground and propelling your leg/knee forward to initiate the kick. So....again, the better you get at performing the 'front knee strike', the better you are at ALL of the kicks that flow from it.
    ....there are others, but I won't belabor the point....

    So, if I'm communicating clearly, you can see that the "master key movements" are simply the roots that lead to MANY or at least Most (some say all) the other basic techs of our system. If you think about it, there's a lot of logic to it too. In any physical action the slowest point is when you initiate action, breaking inertia. Just like in running, the first to begin is the one that will win, or at least get there first; which in 'striking'....counts for a lot. SO....it also makes sense if you take "Hicks Law" into account. Roughly stated, Hicks Law is a scientific concept that states that the more options a subject has, the LONGER it takes to make a choice and take action on it. Now....apply that law to a martial art that has toward 200 self defense options.....PLUS the ten thousand permutations and formulations thereof. WOW...... BUT: If the majority of the INITIAL actions of EACH of those techniques is a MASTER KEY that leads you into other options, then all you need to worry about is making those master key motions, the roots of all the others, a reflex!! Then your initial action will be sharper, faster and easier to come by.
    Also: IF you strive to make ALL of your actions flow through these master key movements/positions then.....they will all have better form. That speaks to economy of motion and proper anatomical alignment.

    I hope my ramblings have helped you out and not muddied the waters.

    Your Brother
    John
    adding a little to what Drew wrote, as I read this I thought of SL-4's "Index Set".

    http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=uJIxGaApKDw
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    Default Re: master keys

    Quote Originally Posted by DavidCC View Post
    adding a little to what Drew wrote, as I read this I thought of SL-4's "Index Set".

    http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=uJIxGaApKDw
    Can a one armed man index his one arm properly?

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    Default Re: master keys

    Quote Originally Posted by Drew View Post
    I find your observation to be correct as a general matter, but possibly incorrect when applied to a specific context. Ultimately all physical activities are neurological activities. The nervous system gets trained to do a specific thing in a specific way. And that Hebbian pathway does not automatically mean that when you do a similar or related physical movement that all that stored information will translate into the new activity. For example, being able to bicep curl a lot of weight doesn't necessarily mean that all that skill and strength will be carried over into every activity involving the biceps. In the strength and conditioning world, this related to general concept is called S.A.I.D.--Specific Adaptation to an Imposed Demand. There have been competitive lifters out there that can squat and deadlift an ungodly amount of weight, but may only bench press their bodyweight (or less).

    Now you can create "carry-overs" from one exercise to another if you carefully plan and train for that. The idea is to get the pathways to share neurons and fire together. An example would be doing good mornings to help recruit more muscles when doing a deadlift. Or engaging the lats in some presses and pulls. So while there may be some superficial, cosmetic resemblance between some physical moves, it does not mean that neurologically (where the true money is) these moves are in fact similar. As this relates to Kenpo, this idea of going beyond the superficial to the nervous system is important especially as it relates to anatomical alignment. It is specific indexing that gives the body the neurological cues to optimally perform as needed. Just as good coaching can increase your physical abilities, good "coaching" can increase your martial arts performance. This method of instruction is called Body Index Training. And I will plug Prof. Angell's blog post here: http://www.sl4kenpo.com/2010/03/21/b...it-training-3/
    Or: "Just because motions look similar, doesn't mean the underlying functional physical movements are related in actuality. This is why depending upon your level of commitment, you have to understand; "Motion and movement anatomically or not the same thing. Motion is very general, and movement is very specific down to the synapsis. Until this singular fact is inculcated into ones mental and physical training in some manner, they cannot achieve higher levels of understanding or performance." - Chapél

    This is why the "master key" is so conceptual over pragmatic, and ultimately is an exercise for the highly knowledgeable instructor if at all, and is a nice exercise for everyone else that will do nothing to improve basics skills or understanding. The "system" was not designed around some master key movements, but evolved into many different kinds of master key ideas.
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    Default Re: master keys

    Quote Originally Posted by Brother John View Post
    The discussion of what makes American Kenpo a 'system' or not would, in my opinion, make for a FINE new thread! Seriously, it'd probably be very interesting.

    To ME, the concept of "Master Key Techniques" is just another tool in the box. If it doesn't make your understanding or competency (or enjoyment) in Kenpo better.....leave it where it lies and party-on. Me? I do find it very interesting, but in the end I don't think it makes my ability in Kenpo any better really. Gives me some insights on similarities between techniques....etc., but my ability to defend myself? Nah.

    Now the master key movments that I mentioned in Post# 28......THAT I think is much more beneficial.

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    Default Re: master keys

    Quote Originally Posted by DavidCC View Post
    adding a little to what Drew wrote, as I read this I thought of SL-4's "Index Set".

    http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=uJIxGaApKDw
    "Hicks Law" is more complex that that when applied to the Martial Sciences. On a simplistic level it makes sense, but the complexities of human interaction in combat has a limiting effect when taught properly all on its own. What some call choices are merely extra options designed to flesh out material. The human body is naturally limited to a core set of physical movements that will not harm the body proper.
    "Nothing is more dangerous than the conscientiously ignorant, or the sincerely stupid." - Martin Luther King Jr.

    "Knowledge speaks but wisdom listens." - Ed Parker Sr.

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    Default Re: master keys

    Quote Originally Posted by Doc View Post
    "Hicks Law" is more complex that that when applied to the Martial Sciences. On a simplistic level it makes sense, but the complexities of human interaction in combat has a limiting effect when taught properly all on its own. What some call choices are merely extra options designed to flesh out material. The human body is naturally limited to a core set of physical movements that will not harm the body proper.
    Why is it that Hicks Law is more complex when applied to martial sciences?

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    Default Re: master keys

    Quote Originally Posted by Brother John View Post
    Why is it that Hicks Law is more complex when applied to martial sciences?

    Your Brother
    John
    The implication of Hicks Law is more mental, given a plethora of physical options. However, physicality taught within a set of anatomical based parameters that have at their root similar structure in application, coupled with a hard wired synapsis yields the process "without thinking" and merely responding spontaneously to external stimuli.
    "Nothing is more dangerous than the conscientiously ignorant, or the sincerely stupid." - Martin Luther King Jr.

    "Knowledge speaks but wisdom listens." - Ed Parker Sr.

    "It's much easier to quote, than to know." - Ron Chapél


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    Default Re: master keys

    Quote Originally Posted by hollywood1340 View Post
    I do find it interesting this comment skipped over without response, so far. Need more talk on "movement'!
    Not quoting Doc directly, but more from my own observations... With no system available, other than general guidelines (techniques, sets, forms, etc)... There is no way for anybody to be wrong in the completion of their interpretations. When it all first began, it was Mr. Parker, then after his passing, so many experts, at first timidly, then with bravado, came out of the woods that even the basics aren't all quite the same. Consequently, I have a difficult time calling it a system, and I'm not totally sure that method is a correct definition, either.

    On the other hand, I could be totally whack and in need of a Gibb's slap (for you NCIS fans).

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    Default Re: master keys

    Quote Originally Posted by sigung86 View Post
    Not quoting Doc directly, but more from my own observations... With no system available, other than general guidelines (techniques, sets, forms, etc)... There is no way for anybody to be wrong in the completion of their interpretations. When it all first began, it was Mr. Parker, then after his passing, so many experts, at first timidly, then with bravado, came out of the woods that even the basics aren't all quite the same. Consequently, I have a difficult time calling it a system, and I'm not totally sure that method is a correct definition, either.

    On the other hand, I could be totally whack and in need of a Gibb's slap (for you NCIS fans).
    Who knows, maybe Abby can figure it out.
    "Nothing is more dangerous than the conscientiously ignorant, or the sincerely stupid." - Martin Luther King Jr.

    "Knowledge speaks but wisdom listens." - Ed Parker Sr.

    "It's much easier to quote, than to know." - Ron Chapél


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    Default Re: master keys

    Greetings.

    Quote Originally Posted by Doc
    The implication of Hicks Law is more mental, given a plethora of physical options. However, physicality taught within a set of anatomical based parameters that have at their root similar structure in application, coupled with a hard wired synapsis yields the process "without thinking" and merely responding spontaneously to external stimuli.
    This is important. Because no mater how many options you've tried, considered or exercised, in a fight/self defense type situation, you will execute that which is hard wired/synaptically ingrained through Adrenal Stress Training in reaction to external stimuli and programmed Rules of Engagement.

    Consciously, you can change or direct the game plan a bit, yet if it's game on, you go with what you have best hard wired, specially when high level stress and/or life threatening situations occur. You will virtually "forget" the hundreds of options... you'll just GO...

    Or if nothing is ingrained... freeze, which is worse.

    Anyway, Hick's Law is valid on systems in which you have to go through a list of actions and evaluate the effect of each to see which one is more appropriate. This assumes that I have defined a function that can give a numerical value to which action is most appropriate.

    that function would be useful indeed, and save me from a lot of trouble for saying stuff I shouldn't. Yet for Martial Science applications, such function has not been defined, making the use of Hicks Law for argument less relevant.

    Yet clearly, if someone is propelling their fist at you face, you will NOT evaluate all your options... you'll go with what you have ingrained as a reaction.

    Training is to ingrain the best possible action after careful evaluation of the actions that can be taken and their consequences. These can be chained together to reach certain Objectives and follow certain Rules of Engagement. Also, other assumptions should be taken into account, specially your initial position, your awareness of attack and natural reactions to the assault.

    So... how many master keys are in this post?
    Berserker101 and Sami like this.

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    Default Re: master keys

    Bump....good info
    Tradition is not about the preservation of the ashes, but about keeping the flame alive

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    Default Re: master keys

    Yes.
    "Nothing is more dangerous than the conscientiously ignorant, or the sincerely stupid." - Martin Luther King Jr.

    "Knowledge speaks but wisdom listens." - Ed Parker Sr.

    "It's much easier to quote, than to know." - Ron Chapél


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    Default Re: master keys

    Greetings it's Sami Ibrahim, I am back...

    We can train any sequence of basics to find multiple applications as long as the basic is being executed close to its optimal level. We can do this in part because we have experience with enough violent situations to be able to identify the dangers involved in various self-defense problems and through pressure testing against non-compliant attackers, we can verify that our application of the basic moves are keeping our attacker neutralized until they are no longer a threat. A "master key" can open many doors and in Kenpo it can solve many problems with that one key. I suggest looking at "master key" as more of a level of understanding and ability achieved with the tools of the Martial Art that Mr. Parker so generously shared with the world.

    For example the basic movements in Parting Wings cannot be Master Keys if the student only knows them to part the arms of a two handed push and to attack specific targets like the floating ribs, trachea and xiphoid process but their is place and time for only learning one base application, in time however, those movements can counter a flanking attacker's elbow strike and work from outside of the attackers limb better than they work down the attackers exposed center line. They can also work when that flanking elbow becomes a spinning back elbow or spinning back knuckle where now it is working on the back of the attacker. Later down the line the same basics can be used to lock, restrain or take down the aggressor. The more the understanding and ability with the basics grows the more problems can be solved using the same "master keys."

    From what humble research I have done on what exactly did Professor Chow teach Mr. Parker, I believe that this multiple applications for what is first internalized as a single application is the Master Key that Mr. Parker was speaking of IMHO.

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    Default Re: master keys

    Welcome back

    Quote Originally Posted by Sami View Post
    Greetings it's Sami Ibrahim, I am back...

    We can train any sequence of basics to find multiple applications as long as the basic is being executed close to its optimal level. We can do this in part because we have experience with enough violent situations to be able to identify the dangers involved in various self-defense problems and through pressure testing against non-compliant attackers, we can verify that our application of the basic moves are keeping our attacker neutralized until they are no longer a threat. A "master key" can open many doors and in Kenpo it can solve many problems with that one key. I suggest looking at "master key" as more of a level of understanding and ability achieved with the tools of the Martial Art that Mr. Parker so generously shared with the world.

    For example the basic movements in Parting Wings cannot be Master Keys if the student only knows them to part the arms of a two handed push and to attack specific targets like the floating ribs, trachea and xiphoid process but their is place and time for only learning one base application, in time however, those movements can counter a flanking attacker's elbow strike and work from outside of the attackers limb better than they work down the attackers exposed center line. They can also work when that flanking elbow becomes a spinning back elbow or spinning back knuckle where now it is working on the back of the attacker. Later down the line the same basics can be used to lock, restrain or take down the aggressor. The more the understanding and ability with the basics grows the more problems can be solved using the same "master keys."

    From what humble research I have done on what exactly did Professor Chow teach Mr. Parker, I believe that this multiple applications for what is first internalized as a single application is the Master Key that Mr. Parker was speaking of IMHO.
    Tradition is not about the preservation of the ashes, but about keeping the flame alive

    Light travels faster than sound. This is why some people appear to be bright until you hear them speak

    "The further a society drifts from the truth, the more it will hate those who speak it".
    ~George Orwell
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    Default Re: master keys

    Quote Originally Posted by profesormental View Post
    Greetings.



    This is important. Because no mater how many options you've tried, considered or exercised, in a fight/self defense type situation, you will execute that which is hard wired/synaptically ingrained through Adrenal Stress Training in reaction to external stimuli and programmed Rules of Engagement.

    Consciously, you can change or direct the game plan a bit, yet if it's game on, you go with what you have best hard wired, specially when high level stress and/or life threatening situations occur. You will virtually "forget" the hundreds of options... you'll just GO...

    Or if nothing is ingrained... freeze, which is worse.

    Anyway, Hick's Law is valid on systems in which you have to go through a list of actions and evaluate the effect of each to see which one is more appropriate. This assumes that I have defined a function that can give a numerical value to which action is most appropriate.

    that function would be useful indeed, and save me from a lot of trouble for saying stuff I shouldn't. Yet for Martial Science applications, such function has not been defined, making the use of Hicks Law for argument less relevant.

    Yet clearly, if someone is propelling their fist at you face, you will NOT evaluate all your options... you'll go with what you have ingrained as a reaction.

    Training is to ingrain the best possible action after careful evaluation of the actions that can be taken and their consequences. These can be chained together to reach certain Objectives and follow certain Rules of Engagement. Also, other assumptions should be taken into account, specially your initial position, your awareness of attack and natural reactions to the assault.

    So... how many master keys are in this post?
    Problem with Hick's Law is that it hasn't been tested in the same manner on humans when it comes to actual performance. The original study done in 1952, was done by a colored light coming on and you had to hit the corresponding colored light out of a differing number of buttons.

    Here is an interesting article about it.

    Hicks Law, Reaction Time In Combat | Force Necessary
    "For he is God's servant to do you good. But if you do wrong, be afraid, for he does not bear the sword for nothing. He is God's servant, an agent of wrath to bring punishment on the wrongdoer."

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